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Gorillas, Trout Fishing, Upper Delaware

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From the 2/27/2004 News Eagle (Hawley, PA) website:

Gorillas, Trout Fishing
on the Upper Delaware
.................

SOME HISTORY

In what geologists call a “classic freestone stream system,” the Upper Delaware River saw its cold water run in deep, narrow channels, filled with glacial boulders and graded stones for many thousands of years.

Today, besides the heavy silting of the riverbed and wide and shallower stream channels caused by extensive deforestation in the 19th century, the Upper Delaware River is now a radically altered river system.

A US Supreme Court decision created that reality.

Simply put the Supreme Court ruled in 1954 that New York had the right to draw millions of gallons of water per day from the Delaware River to satisfy the drinking water needs of New York City. That decision allowed the use of three Upper Delaware Watershed reservoirs (One completed in 1953, one completed in 1954 and the third built from 1955-1967) that help supply New York City’s drinking water and also provide a guaranteed flow in the Delaware of 1,750 cubic feet per second (cfs) at Montague, NJ.

Managing all of this is the Delaware River Basin Commission (DRBC), a consortium of the States of Pennsylvania, Delaware, New Jersey, New York and the federal government.

“ERRACTIC AND LOW”

Eck, who is also Treasurer of a group called Friends of the Upper Delaware River, echoes his group’s major problem with the DRBC management of the river: “erratic and often low stream flows.”

These are created by low and erratic releases from New York City’s Upper Delaware reservoirs, i.e. the one at Cannonsville. These erratic flows “have placed enormous stress on the river’s ecosystem, and the latest proposed changes to those stream flows can only make that worse,” Eck said.

“The reason that this whole thing is so hard for people to grasp is that when the reservoirs were built, no consideration was ever given to aquatic life other than lip service,” according to Dr. Robert Bachman, former Director of Maryland’s Fish and Wildlife Service,

“It has been only in the past ten years or so that in-stream flows have begun to be taken seriously,” Bachman said, adding: “But if you see the Bush Administration's take on the Snake River salmon and steelhead and the breaching of the dams, you can see that some people still don't get it.”

What Dr. Bachman and Eck are principally concerned about is degradation of the habitat for trout in the Upper Delaware. That degradation is caused by “these erratic stream flows,” Eck said, adding:

“One day you can have 2,000 cfs flowing down the river and the next day you can have 200 cfs flowing down the river.”

HIGHER AVERAGE SOUGHT

What the DRBC has proposed is a new lower standard — down to 225 cfs per day as the bottom end of the flow rate. (See chart on Page One)

Some more history:

The Subcommittee on Ecological Flows (SEF), a subcommittee of the DRBC, has begun a fairly well publicized three to five year process intended to develop an overall flow plan for the entire Delaware basin. Of long-term concern to Friends of the Upper Delaware is that “whatever flows and releases may be proposed for the protection of the trout will, in the final presentation, be vetoed by the New York City Department of Environmental Protection (NYC/DEP), leaving the fishery in considerably worse shape, years down the road, than it is today,” Eck said.

“Further,” Eck said, “we strongly disagree with the currently promoted “interim” 225 CFS flows that are to be put in place for the next three to five years while these studies are being conducted.”

He explained: “Flows differ from releases in that these include all water (including warm water from tributaries, summer run off, rain, etc.,) coming to the monitoring point (or flow target). Releases account for only the critical cold water coming from the dams. The more warm water that is counted, the less cold water needs to be released to meet even the dangerous 225 cfs target.

“Such a low flow rate would have no cooling effect on water temperature even as close to the Cannonsville Dam as the Town of Hancock, NY. Far more importantly,” Eck added, “in a summer with high air temperatures, the meager 225 cfs flows could prove lethal for both the trout and insect populations.

“It should also be realized that the arguments for relying on the 225 flows are based on a study done over two decades ago that was never entirely implemented. In fact," he continued, "what the study says is a 225 cfs flow would provide enough water for a few trout to move around in, but would not provide adequate water or temperatures for a healthy fishery.

“The study goes on to say that even cold water releases of 325 cfs would be devastating to the fishery. Which begs the question — how could the 225 cfs be based on this study? Which leads to the question that since there is no scientific foundation for the 225 cfs, why not use as the interim flow fate the 600 cfs that the Friends of the Upper Delaware River have been advocating?"

DOING THE MATH

What a healthy river, and one capable of sustaining a world-class trout fishery needs in this particular case, Eck said, “is a constant release from Cannonsville Reservoir of 600 cfs per day, from May 15 through September 15.”

And Dr. Bachman says he has done the math to illustrate that accomplishing this — without negatively impacting New York’s water supply — is not only possible, “it’s easy.”

Dr. Bachman provided the following data: The total capacity of all three Upper Delaware reservoirs is 270.8 billion gallons. If one cubic foot per second equals 646,272 gallons per day, then 600 cfs would equal 387,763,200 gallons per day. For the 120-day period from May through September 15, that amounts to 46 billion gallons — 48 per cent of Cannonsville’s storage, and 17 per cent of total storage in all three reservoirs.

NYC is authorized to divert 800 millions gallons per day, or 292 billion gallons per year — 108 per cent of the total capacity of all three reservoirs.

“So if all three reservoirs are full on May 15 — and if Cannonsville were to release 600 cfs continually from May 15 through September 15 with no inflow at all during this four-month period — the reservoir would be drawn down less than half way for river purposes, (the trout),” Dr. Bachman says.

“Now what's wrong with this picture?” Dr. Bachman asks rhetorically — and then replies: “The ‘fisheries plan’ says it is OK to divert more than 100 per cent of the total capacity of all three reservoirs to NYC, but considers 17 per cent of the capacity too much to protect a world class trout fishery.”

"And that’s absurd,” Eck observed.

HEARING NEXT WEEK

Eck said he plans to appear before the DRBC when it brings its regular meeting to Hawley next week. The points he expects to make on behalf of the Friends of the Upper Delaware are:

“To protect both the wild trout and the cold water ecosystem, we want a guaranteed 600 cfs release, from the Cannonsville Reservoir, from May 15 to September 15. We point out that this rate of release not only protects the fishery, it readily accommodates both wade and drift boat fishermen and in so doing protects local fishing related economies.

“During the less critical winter months, from September 16 to May 14, we seek a guaranteed flow of 300 cfs; adequate for preventing anchor ice and similar threatening problems. To prevent abrupt and dangerous changes in release rates, we maintain that the transition times of these changes must be ramped — or gradually changed.

“We seek a guarantee that the water temperature from Cannonsville downstream to Lordville, not exceed 70 degrees Fahrenheit at any time. We maintain that the new flows being released from the PPL power generating plant on Lake Wallenpaupack, should not be counted towards the Supreme Court mandate of 1,750 CFS at Montague.

“We maintain that, to prevent silt build up, the Cannonsville releases be augmented with releases from the East Branch when Cannonsville levels drop below 30 per cent. Similarly, we call for the locating and correcting of silt entering the West Branch and the upper main stem from feeder streams.

“We call for the development of a mutually agreed upon plan for proportional water release reductions during periods of declared drought. We maintain that during periods of high water or air temperatures, spillage be offset with equal amounts of cold water releases.

“And finally, we maintain that current suggestions to remanage or relabel the waters described above be abandoned and, moreover, these waters safeguarded with guaranteed consistent releases.”

“We’re dealing with that 800-pound New York City gorilla,” Eck repeats, adding: “But this is nonetheless something we feel we must undertake — both for the health of the river and the tremendous fishing economy that the river supports.”

The DRBC’s appearance in Hawley next week will consist of an informational meeting, beginning at about 2 pm Tuesday, March 2, followed by a public hearing to include the issues raised in this article.

A second informal conference and public hearing will be held Wednesday, March 3, beginning at about 3:30 pm. That second hearing will be part of the Commission's regular general business meeting. The meetings and hearings on March 2 and 3 are open to the public and will be held at the PPL Lake Wallenpaupack Environmental Learning Center, Route 6, Hawley.

Web note: Questions about this article should be directed to the reporter at NewsEagle1@aol.com. Comments about this article may be put in the form of a letter to the editor and sent to editor@neagle.com. The letters policy can be found on Page 4 of the newspaper, the Opinion Page.
 
As a Trout Fisherman who uses this facility from May - Oct/Nov... I can see the need to fight the 800lbs Gorilla. But from the average Joe's point of view, what's the purpose and even worse, who cares, other than the following:

1. Trout fishermen like myself and many of you.
2. Outfitters
3. Lodges/resourts
4. Guide Services
5. Some of the local economy.

What I would like to know is, how much money is actually generated from the above 5, through trout fishermen? It's a legit question. Does anyone downstream from the above 5 benefit from the proposed flows? Does anyone downstream benefit from the taxes paid by the Trout fishermen? If so, who and how?

Does anyone downstream of the fishery really care about trout and insect life? I'm willing to bet that 99.9% of New Yorkers and New Jersians probably wouldn't know what a mayfly is if it hit them in the face, and in reality, what are the chances of a Mayfly hitting a New Yorker? I'm willing to bet that most of New Yorkers and/or New Jersians have never even fished for trout, and really don't care about the fishery.

I believe that's the problem. Let's say the wild trout population on the Delaware River expires. Is anyone going to give a crap other than the small handfull of people who fish it? I say small handfull because lets face it, Hancock is no major hub, nor is Deposit, or anyplace along the coridor. There are millions of people in NY / NJ. How many Trout fisherman are there per Million?

Is there a way to convince these millions of people that their lives will be better off with a trout population on the Delaware River? If there is, maybe we need to start informing people and getting the word out. I'm sorry to say that if there are no reasons to have trout other than to fullfill a trout fishermans weekend habit, there can be no reason to for the DRBC to care about the small handfull of people looking to keep the environment in which we fish, a healthy one. When the majority of these people want a trout, they go to the local food store and purchase 1.

Once again, I'm all for supporting either of the groups fighting for the trout habitat, but I don't think it's the trout fishermen we have to convince, it's the other 99.9% of the population.

Just a thought.
 
dcabarle said:
As a Trout Fisherman who uses this facility from May - Oct/Nov... I can see the need to fight the 800lbs Gorilla. But from the average Joe's point of view, what's the purpose and even worse, who cares, other than the following:

1. Trout fishermen like myself and many of you.
2. Outfitters
3. Lodges/resourts
4. Guide Services
5. Some of the local economy.

What I would like to know is, how much money is actually generated from the above 5, through trout fishermen?...[snipped for brevity]
...........
About 25 million dollars to the local economy up here.

Try:
www.tu.org/pdf/conservation/ccf/CCF_DE2003.pdf

"These periodic low flows can kill trout, trout eggs and insects, limiting the health of the trout fishery. Notwithstanding the enormous problems in the system, economic research funded by the Coldwater Conservation Fund found that the trout fishery is worth about $25 million annually to the local economy."
 
Let's see, it appears like the bottom line is something like: several thousand make a living, directly or indirectly because of the fishery; local communities benefit financially (according to the report) to the tune of about $25 million; a couple of thousand(?)have seasonal homes because of the fishery; the trout fishers enjoy their experiences on the fishery.

On the other hand, there are about 8 million people dependednt on that water too. It effects their economy to the tune of $ billions; their health and well-being, indirectly their enjoyment, etc.

Should and could both populations be considered? Of course. Does one population have to suceed at the expense of the other? Maybe not, but figuring out how to satisfy one without sacrificing the other is THE glitch. Barring an acceptable solution ... well you figure it out.
 
Here are two quick benefits to non-fisherman that come to mind:

1) The Upper River is healthy due to increased flows for trout. This puts more water into the lower river, which should be healthier also. Most people would agree that a healthy river is a good thing. There is certainly more recreation that depends on good flows downstream of the trout fishing zones. Canoeing and rafting of course is the really big one. In an average year over 400,000 people use the National PArk Service corridor of the river.

2) New plan manages to help the habitat and fishery while at the same time preventing a declaration of drought in the lower basin (NJ, PA and DE). The down basin states want to stay out of "drought" due to the water restrictions imposed on them. Even drought warning can cause 30% restrictions on water use. This is not just lawn watering and so forth, but industrial use. The economics I would think can be quite large.

No plan can succeed unless there are benefits to more than a few fishermen. This needs to be crafted so that it is a win/win scenario. It can be done.

Here is a truly unfair current policy: Drought in the Delaware Basin is determined by total storage in the three basin reservoirs, namely Cannonsville, Neversink and Pepacton. The definition reads that if probability drops below a certain level, than we enter a level of drought restriction. This is different than New York Citys definition of drought. This means that NYC can be drining the Delaware Basin reservoirs to wash side walks while the Delaware Basin itself is in drought emergency. Makes no sense!!!
 
Dennis

Who said that 99.9% of the population have to care or have input?I never heard that before.In fact the president only needs 51% to be voted in.

To keep it simple the parties that do care are the four states invloved AND NYC being the biggest problem.

What the masses think(and they dont regarding this) is not important.

First of all if you shut the valves of to the west and east branch and the neversink you would destroy a treasured fishery.Thousands of fish would be killed,as well as all living species that thrive in that ecosytem, and the catskills as you know it would be no longer.

The economic report done shows that Delaware county alone generates 30 miliion dollars annually from the fisherman.That study does not include PA.It aslo does not include the intangables like what is spent at the fast food joints,gas sations,and bars,etc.

Not to mention the fact that it would devastate the real estate market since all of the river front properites would be without water?.I am sure you would see forclosure rates take a sharp upward move as well.

Also the anglers who did fish the tailwaters would now be left with the BKILL AND WILO.Those two rivers alone could not support the amount of anglers that would fish them at that point.So you would now devastate those fisheries as well.

Dennis its quite obvoius you dont comprehend the ramifications of what would happend .

Many lifes would be shattered,and the economy from roscoe to deposit and from hancock down river 50 miles or so would be hurt terribly.


I remeber when you where thinking of buyng property on the west branch last year.So you can put up a bed B&B.

Lets sat you did do it and your familes lifes depended on it.

Would you

A.Fight the appropriate agencies?
b.Fight the entitre population of the 4 states?

I am quite sure at that point you would learn very quickly who needs to be addressed.

No need to answer,just next time you taking your saturday trip to the catskills its something to ponder?

If your think your point is a valid than why not present it to both boards of the DRF AND FUDR .Who knows maybe you know something we dont.


OH and the Catskill fly-fishing museum would than become a "real" museum.
JOE.T
 
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Big-Spinner

Big-Spinner, you didn't go anywhere near far enough in explaining the "whole picture." Please continue. For instance, most people who aren't informed think the 225cfs is a set flow. It is not, it is a minimum. It means that the city can't go below that, where in the past it has been able to go down to as low as 45 cfs. And that, is what was so bad for the entire system, trout, insects, and downstream states. Most days between May 15th and Sept. 15th see more than a 600 cfs flow anyway. mark.....:cool:
 
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Joe,

Keep in mind that I'm on your side.

Unfortunately, your analogy to a would be president is critically flawed. One reason that comes to the top of my mind is coverage. You don't see News 4 racing to the Cannosville Reservoir to cover the big trout picture, do you?

What the masses think is definetely important, that's why people have petitions, million man marches, and protests. Take a look at just went down in Haiti. The president just stepped down. Sure there was bit more to it than that, but you get the idea.

Unfortunately, I don't think enough people care about the trout other than people like me and you (and that's what my entire message above was supposed to convey). How many friends do you have that fly-fish? Well, you probably have alot but when I tell people that I fly fish, the responses I get are, "You mean that whipping thing" or "like a river runs through it" or "What's that?" Here's a quick test... Ask someone if they know the Name Ross Perot, or Elian Gonzolez. You remember both of them, right? What's more important, Ross Perot or the Delware River System? Ask someone what the Delaware River is and the response you'll get will probably have something to do with George Washington, maybe!

"Destroy a treasured fishery". I agree, Joe, but who the hell cares about it other than a few fly fishermen and a few small towns that nobody has ever heard of?

30 Million sounds like alot, but is it really? I wouldn't mind having it, but who does that money go to? Once a week a NYC lottery is drawn that just about doubles that.

As far as real estate is concerned, once again, we're talking only a few very small towns.

"Also the anglers who did fish the tailwaters would now be left with the BKILL AND WILO.Those two rivers alone could not support the amount of anglers that would fish them at that point.So you would now devastate those fisheries as well."

I think you're misunderstanding my entire post with that statement, Joe. I'm not talking about the fishermen. I'm talking about everyone else who don't even know of a small place called, Roscoe, NY. Let's be real here... If I told you about a small town out in East Bubble @&#$! that was having a problem preserving gnomes, would you jump for them? Probably not.

I fully comprehend the ramifications of what would happen. I think you should re-read my post, because you didn't quite understand the point I was trying to convey.

Finally, the answer to your A and B question, and probably something for everyone to consider. Write to your congressmen! They're always looking to pick up a vote. If enough people write so they understand that there's an issue...

Respectfully,
 
Dennis

I know your on our side.

Yes the study that was done is legitamate with regards to the 30 million.Actaully the entire catskills generates 87 million a year from fisherman.

Believe me I understand the conept of money and how much is a large sum.As a whole number no 30 mil is not a lot of money but remeber its many small sums that add up to a large sum of tax dollars for the state.

Watch the pennies and the dollars will make themselves.

Sorry Dennis but with regards to this situation it has nothing to do with the mass population.It has all to do with the local population.

Your right not many people do care,but theres enough that do.

Like us.

We already have some cordial relatioships with a few congressman, as well as other politicians.We have actually even floted some down the D to show them whats at stake.

JOE.T

.
 
Just a point to clarify a somewhat incorrect statement.
"In fact the president only needs 51% to be voted in." To be voted in a presidential candidate needs 50% +1 'Electoral College' votes, not 51% of the popular vote. In fact, a candidate can become president with less then 50% of the popular vote. As an example, in the election of 2000, I believe GW lost the popular vote but won the Electoral College.
 
Mayfly

The 51% was to demonstrate a point,and keep it simple.
 
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Joe,

Actually my first response was entirely 'on topic'. The last response was a response to your statement,

"Who said that 99.9% of the population have to care or have input?I never heard that before.In fact the president only needs 51% to be voted in."

I was simply clarifying that the presidential election is not based on popularity vote but the Electoral College.
 
IMO: the Delaware flow issue is unfortunately limited to only a small interest group and because of that they lack any significant voting power. I say that because the vast majority of the people that access this fragile system probably do not have permanent residence status in NY. While PA and NJ count, I think NY is the biggest hurdle to a good plan. I don't think Mayor Bloomberg, Senators Clinton & Schumer and the local elected officials ever care a rats butt when they get mail from me with my address of NJ. IMO, Bloomberg probably thinks his drinking water comes from heaven and not the Catskills. I know that is not true but has anyone ever heard or read a comment about the entire NYC watershed come from his office.

I own a house eight miles from Hankins, I bought it only because I trout fish, and even though I am just minutes from the Delaware, and this point goes to a comment Dennis made eailer up, in five years not one of my neighors, friends , contractors... care at all about fly fishing and the river. I bore them when I raise the subject. These people are the voters, I'm can't vote and therefore make any impact on the politicians up there. Quite frankly, all I feel like is a tax wallet to them, and a deeper one at that because I am a non-resident.

I agree that there is a significant economic draw from fishing, but in my area of Sullivan County it doesn't seem to mean much to the locals, they care about hay, cows, casinos... I agree it is very important to the land owners and business owners along the river but that is so limited, I'm only eight miles off river and it might as well be Westchester County. Before I go up to my house every weekend I stop and buy every local paper to read, I mean local, The River Reporter, The Democrat and another one I can't think of, and I have to say, I never see anything in those papers about the Delaware River flow issue, except in the River Reporter the column on fishing conditions might have a comment, but if you don't fish you wouldn't even see it. What's the point, like I think Dennis said, how do you make uninterested people understand this is an issue that they should care about? The local papers don't even pick it up as an issue. (I have not bought those papers since the winter so I can't say that is true since December)

I care, I have been a supporting member of the DRF for three years now, I write letters, I talk it up to anyone that will listen. I'll tell you Joe T. right now, if the system craps out I would sell my house immediately because I'm only there for good trout fishing oportunities. I could get a country home closer if the Delaware and Beamoc were not an interest. I'm not saying the Beamoc is chop liver, don't read me wrong on that comment. That would mean my landscaper would not get his $75 a week, no breakfast every Sunday in Jeffersonville, the tractor dealer would miss my grand a year, Beaverkill Hatchery would not get about $500 for trout and feed a year from me.........Point is that most of these people don't understand that the health of the Delaware system is directly tied to the business I give them.

I will continue to support the cause but it is just an awful big up stream swim. Without a united platform we will only hurt our ultimate results.

Michael M.
 
Michael M said:

"...if the system craps out I would sell my house immediately because I'm only there for good trout fishing oportunities. I could get a country home closer if the Delaware and Beamoc were not an interest...[snipped]
Michael M.
..........
Hmmmm...

Where you could you purchase a country home closer to New Jersey than the Catskill / Pocono region with the varied angling opportunites that our region offers?

Surely not Orange County, NY or Sussex County, NJ - since both of those areas are now very suburban and quite expensive.

Whether you happen to vote in New Jersey, New York or Pennsylvania - or whether your landscaper in North Branch or waitress at Ted's in Jeff doesn't care a fig about the UD should have no bearing in your desire to see that this resource remains the best that it can be.

><}}}>
 
Un, your reaching there. Get his point and stop trying to trivialize it. Plus, you seriously need to do an edit there. His last paragraph should of told you all you need to know, dig? mark..........
 
Unregistered. I'd rather address you by name, you don't have to register but you can sign off with a name.

Please go back and read my post, I can tell you that you have my opinion backwards.

I was supporting Joe T. and the economic studies he raised that the health of the Delaware system goes far beyond a few self serving trout fishermen. There are many hidden benefits to a properly managed resource. The area all around the upper Delaware and for that matter the entire length of the river would benefit, fishing and nonfishing businesses alike.

As for your comment that where would I go closer to my NJ home is quite obvious, no where, that is why I have a home there. My broker kept trying to show me homes down river more and I even had to explain to this broker, keep me within the cold water area of the river. Even the professional broker didn't understand why the water temperature had a signifiance to me ( and other trout fishers). That should also tell you something about the apathy of some of the area people that don't trout fish and I would think it would be better for their business to know. I guess not every broker is like Jim Scerio (excuse the spelling Jim).

Michael M.
 
Michael M said:



Originally posted by Michael M:

"...if the system craps out I would sell my house immediately because I'm only there for good trout fishing oportunities. I could get a country home closer if the Delaware and Beamoc were not an interest...[snipped]
Michael M.

[and]

"As for your comment that where would I go closer to my NJ home is quite obvious, no where, that is why I have a home there.[snipped]

Michael M.
........

Well, first you say that you would sell your house immediately and purchase a country home closer if the system "craps out" and then in your next post in this thread you follow up and say you would have no where to go.

You mention that many real estate brokers, waitresses and landscapers - or for the most part - locals - have no interest in learning the technical aspects of the politics of this fishery.

So?

However, you have the knowledge since you are an angler that fishes these waters and you have a financial interest in Sullivan County and the UD system by the simple fact that you chose to purchase a home here.

If you think more locals should become aware of the plight of your home waters, may I suggest joining the local Lions Club, Callicoon Business Association, Rotary, Chamber of Commerce, Public Radio in Jeff or other organiztions.

There are many locals that make up these organizations and they welcome first - and second - home owners.

Thank you.
 
I asked this question on another message board yesterday, right after I posted it here. One person responded with the following:
I appreciate the issue that you raise here. What I see you asking is: Is there any larger issue which is meanigful to the larger population of these areas which also positively affects trout populations? In my opinion the most compelling argument for healthy trout populations is their role as indicator species. Like the canary in the mine, trout tell you if the water you are drinking, bathing, and cooking in is healthy. More importantly: is the water your child is drinking, bathing and splashing in healthy? We are begining to recognize the long term impacts of seemingly inocuous manufacturing practices upon the animals in our streams and forests (Can you spell PCB?). Whqt better way to continuously monitor the health of our water supply than to use indicator species as well as laboratory results. For that I nominate: trout.
Above quotation taken from NJTrout.com.

Like I said, I don't think anyone here would argue that we're all in this together. Maybe one way is better than the next? I'm just thankfull for groups such as the DRF and the FUDR. Thanks
 
Unregistered

Simply put, the reason I said "no where" was because I don't need a country home to fish NJ. I bought in the UD area only because of that resource (wild fish) and the existing condition of it. If it ceases to be a cold water fishery I will have lost the "primary reason" I bought in that central location. Hence, I loose, but my point was that the non-fishing people don't know that they would be loosing more than a trout fishery, they would loose far more ($$$) than they are aware of; as Joe T. pointed out and I was attempting to support with my personal opinion and $$$ experience.

You also stated "If you think more locals should become aware of the plight of your home waters, may I suggest joining the local Lions Club, Callicoon Business Association, Rotary, Chamber of Commerce, Public Radio in Jeff or other organiztions."

Other than the Jeff Radio all those organizations are commercil, I believe. I'm miss what my involvement could be, I'm a nonresident that arrives Friday and leaves Sunday and I have no commercial business.

Seriously. I'd rather be fishing, I have my lawn cut only so that I can have more time to fish. I'm only up there so many hours a weekend.

Thanks for your comments, I trust we are both on the same page. I'm aware that it is a tough resource to manage and I appreciate everything anyone does to help it. When Jim S. asked me to join an organization they were setting up (DRF) I gladly did and I will continue to do whatever I can.

Sorry I let this horse out of the barn and I don't want it to drift any further off the issue on my accord or comments.

Michael M.
 
Good thread... Now we need a writer and a petition.

Would someone be able to draw up a letter, I can set up a petition for people to sign. I have no clue as what to say, "Please save our river"...

If someone with some brains (would have done it myself, but they don't call me the scarecrow for nothing) can draw up a letter, I'll have it posted here. People can read it and sign the petition. I'll send them out to the congressmen. I know the FUDR and the DRF have probably contacted a few already, but if the averate JoeT ooops.. meant to say, Joe... write in with a bunch of names, you never know what may happen! You would be surprised with the power of the internet!

Uhhh.. while you're at it, draw one up for River Rd. too. :)
 
News Flash. Just in........the LATEST REPORT! Things went real well today down in PA. at the PPL meetings. Tomorrow looks good. Pray for the river and the fish folks. mark.........
 
willowhead said:
News Flash. Just in........the LATEST REPORT! Things went real well today down in PA. at the PPL meetings.
.................

What exactly are you taking about?
Please advise.
Thank you.
 
My $.01
The reservoirs were not constructed to produce a first class trout fishery. They were built to provide millions of people with drinking water. It seems to me (as uninformed as I am) that NYC sees it as what we are asking NYC to do is to release water that MAY be utilized for its residents, to keep some fish happy. I imagine that when they put the two in a balance, people win.

Now hold on, I read what's been said, that the average flows have been over what is being asked of them to release, but what historically flows INTO the reservoirs is NOT a guarantee that it will be that way, every year into perpetuity. I would imagine, elected officials would want to err on the side of holding onto their water. So, it comes down to trying to convince them that the benefits of releasing more water outweigh the possible negative ramifications of doing so.
I've read about the amounts of money that activities in and around the rivers provide the area; I would suspect that if that is the major argument, NYC could say, we'll pay the river communities that money for their lost revenues from the fishery. Of course, that's NOT what we want... Local communities would certainly enjoy having to pay lower local property taxes. The fish would still be there, but not as predictably or maybe they'd have to rely on stocking. Would a drop in the number of fishermen who came (because it would be more like Jersey (sorry), put and take) hurt? Sure. But if that loss was offset by revenue from NYC...
Sure there are holes in my simplified scenario, but my point is that there is going to have to be a well thought out answer to "Why should we or why would we, want to release our drinking water for some fish(or fishermen)?"

One question I've been meaning to ask, why is it so necessary to maintain the 1750cfs at Montague? I understand that it keeps the salt water downstream of a certain point, but why is that so important? Do they take water from the river to drink?

John
 
^The saltline creeps upstream during times of low-water (or low-flow) caused by many factors, but mainly due to shortage of rainfall and groudwater seepage. This than can get into the intake valves of indutries that need clean freshwater used for cooling, etc....
 
The 1750 cfs Montague target is somewhat arbitrary. It was based on the best science at the time. half a cubic foot per second of water per square mile of drainage. Unfortunately, there was no mention of where this water should come from. Natural flow, Lake Wallenpaupack, NYC reservoirs, etc. If you apply the same rule to the West Branch for example, the minimum flow should be 300 cfs! (200 on EB and 100 on Neversink). What history has shown is that the Salt Line does not become a problem even when the basin is in drought emergency. Two years ago during drought, the Montague target was reduced to 1100 cfs. No salt problems occurred. Reducing the Montague Traget could save water for later use. NYC released 180,000 cfs-days of water two years ago to meeting the target. That is compared to a 20,000 cfs-day bank that the fisheries get as a habitat bank.
 
Big Spinner,
You wouldn't by chance have a real estate concern in Hancock near Mickey D's?

;-)
 
Funny that someone who tries to stay anonamous want's to get familier.

The (GOOD) news is forth comming. And it will be announced by other than me. Let's let those best qualified do the talkin'.

I got some serious fishin' and tyin' to do. mark........
 
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