Presidential Candidate Q & A on Recreational Fishing

[Trouser Trout]

Well everyone will have to pay more taxes. That's a given. I think broadening the base is a must. Clearly we spend too much and as I said spending cuts across the board are coming. We just have a ridiculous structural imbalance that can't be dealt with through growth and speeding cuts. The kind of growth needed to bring in revenues always invites inflation. If you were to look at just the Medicare prescription plan that was enacted in 2005 the point is well illustrated. On the day TTwhat program kicked off we needed to have 8 trillion dollars invested in moderate growth vehicles to support the program overthe long haul we didn't have 8 trillion or billion or million or hell 8000.00 we put it on the card. So yeah we have a big spending problem but to suggest we an solve this forthe long haul without added tax revenues is disingenuous. And your response seems to indicate that I believe someone doesn't pay enough in taxes already. I can asure you as part of the 10% paying those taxes im in no hurry to pay more. As for suffering from avatar envy all I can say is mine is bigger

As the economy grows everyone will pay more taxes as their earnings increase and the unemployed go back to work, I just don't agree that we need to raise anyone's rate.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Starting to sound like GST's off topic forum over here:nose-picking:

We need a leader right now. Obama has not been that guy. Time will tell if Mitt can be that guy. But we can't fix what's broken if only one party is brought to the table.

 

[fishhead]

I find it ironic that folks who don't want taxes raised on the wealthy point out that the upper 10% pay 71% of income taxes. They fail to realize that this only serves to point out the income equality gap between the rich and everyone else, especially since, through the use of loopholes and tax shelters, they pay a lower rate than the rest of us.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

I find it ironic that folks who don't want taxes raised on the wealthy point out that the upper 10% pay 71% of income taxes. They fail to realize that this only serves to point out the income equality gap between the rich and everyone else, especially since, through the use of loopholes and tax shelters, they pay a lower rate than the rest of us.

Another liberal shows his true colors

What, exactly, is wrong with being rich? Who said that in a free, democratic, capitalist society that we should strive for income equality??? Therein lies the true problem. Some folks feel income is "owed to them". You have the same rights in the US to make as much $$ as you want within the law. Nobody is stopping you from increasing your wealth if that is what you want in life.

 

[MACFLY]

A

As the economy grows everyone will pay more taxes as their earnings increase and the unemployed go back to work, I just don't agree that we need to raise anyone's rate.

Yes I understand the principle of a rising tide lifts all boats. However we are headed for a tsunami of fiscal problems. Some more immediate then others. Just the possibility of a downgrade Of credit rating this year presents the nightmare scenario for our country. Time will tell!!!

 

[MACFLY]

I find it ironic that folks who don't want taxes raised on the wealthy point out that the upper 10% pay 71% of income taxes. They fail to realize that this only serves to point out the income equality gap between the rich and everyone else, especially since, through the use of loopholes and tax shelters, they pay a lower rate than the rest of us.

I'm not suggesting that taxes be raised only on the wealthy? I'm certainly not saying they should be raised now. I would be very careful asserting the rich get all the breaks. TT is correct that the top 10% pay most of the taxes. The notion that they should pay more because of some imbalance in our economy is based on a concerted effort to put Americans against each other. Who are the rich to you? How is this defined. If all these loopholes are enabling them to pay less taxes how come they still account for such a high percentage of what is paid. If this is about fairness how is it that 48% pay no federal income tax at all. Our single largest line item in the federal budget is for means tested welfare programs which now tops 1 trillion dollars. So while it's a great populist message to say tax the rich it's the kind of divisive leadership that is creating a horrible situation for our nation.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

I would be very careful asserting the rich get all the breaks.

Agreed. My wife and I take every single legal break we can and we itemize every year to do so. And we are a very, very, very long way from being rich.

 

[Trouser Trout]

I find it ironic that folks who don't want taxes raised on the wealthy point out that the upper 10% pay 71% of income taxes. They fail to realize that this only serves to point out the income equality gap between the rich and everyone else, especially since, through the use of loopholes and tax shelters, they pay a lower rate than the rest of us.

The so-called rich are not using any method of accounting or investment that isn't available to everyone. The laddered tax structure that we have on income is nothing but an achievement tax on the successful. Which is in clear conflict with taxation uniformity which is demanded in Article 1 section eight of the US Constitution, which is what gives the congress the ability to levy taxes etc. It reads as follows:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States. It then further details what the congress has the ability to use the money for once it is collected. NOWHERE does it read that those earning more money shall pay more or at a higher rate, because it states that taxes shall be uniform throughout the US,which would be in direct conflict to the clause.

 

[MACFLY]

Well stated TT. Of course no one reads or cares about the constitution otherwise we would live in a much different America.

The so-called rich are not using any method of accounting or investment that isn't available to everyone. The laddered tax structure that we have on income is nothing but an achievement tax on the successful. Which is in clear conflict with taxation uniformity which is demanded in Article 1 section eight of the US Constitution, which is what gives the congress the ability to levy taxes etc. It reads as follows:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States. It then further details what the congress has the ability to use the money for once it is collected. NOWHERE does it read that those earning more money shall pay more or at a higher rate, because it states that taxes shall be uniform throughout the US,which would be in direct conflict to the clause.

 

[BrownChickenBrownTrout]

Here's some facts for you. The top quintile of wealth in this country saw real wealth decrease more than any other quintile. The bottom saw an increase in real wealth. This is all over the Great Recession. The middle 3/5ths saw negligible decrease of another 1-2%. This is from the CBO.

Here's another fact revenue as a percentage of GDP has been about 15-20% since 1960 regardless of tax policy. Spending on the other hand has grown, especially in the last 4 years to a high of around 25% of GDP.

What can we learn about this? The so-called wealth gap is bull shit propaganda. It's designed by leftist think tanks to promote fear that the haves are getting more than their fare share. Here's the thing, the pie is not limited. It can grow with savvy economic policy. Who cares is there's a big gap when everyone's slice is bigger?

Meanwhile out of control deficit spending is slowing the economic engine that drives this economy, along with poor federal reserve policy to devalue the debt we have.

Inflation is more related to the growth of money supply. Milton Friedman has written plenty on this.

A GDP growth of just 3% has shown federal revenue growth of 6-7% In total. So there's real data to support lower taxes. Simplify the code and I bet things would get even better.

All these things can get only get done from both sides of the aisle. The republicans are going to have to call Romneys plan what it is, a tax hike. The democrats are going to have to look at serious entitlement reform and quit making the rich into a boogeyman and quit giving something for nothing.

 

[streamfisher]

The argument that democrats 'hate' the rich always comes up. It's nothing but a dialog terminator to either avoid the topic and/or remain ignorant/indignant. Romney's 47% comments clearly show his disdain and judgmental view for those not like him - rich. HE is the one making this about who people are not what the economic model is doing. Democrats are rightly so pointing out how the 'trickle down' idea did not and is not working. If you project out the old adage that "it takes money to make money' you will end up with the disparity we have today. The disparity is not about rich people and not rich people - they are the symptoms the canaries in the coal mine. The disparity is there because it, money, did not trickle down. Besides, in a country based in liberty, who thought it was a great idea that Americans would like the idea of having their 'wealth' trickle down from others??? We are free people! We go for and earn what we get! This whole idea was and is un-American.

And now.... Romney and Boehner have classified "Job Creators"! It wasn't democrats that coined that class warfare term. Consider this stupid notion.. So, they want to support the job creators, as they define them, so they can create jobs... great idea... BUT how do I become a job creator??? Sure, I do all the hard entrepreneurial stuff and get it done, but why would existing job creators get government assistance? Ironic in a dirty way that they are against government unless it helps them as usual.

 

[MACFLY]

The argument that democrats 'hate' the rich always comes up. It's nothing but a dialog terminator to either avoid the topic and/or remain ignorant/indignant. Romney's 47% comments clearly show his disdain and judgmental view for those not like him - rich. HE is the one making this about who people are not what the economic model is doing. Democrats are rightly so pointing out how the 'trickle down' idea did not and is not working. If you project out the old adage that "it takes money to make money' you will end up with the disparity we have today. The disparity is not about rich people and not rich people - they are the symptoms the canaries in the coal mine. The disparity is there because it, money, did not trickle down. Besides, in a country based in liberty, who thought it was a great idea that Americans would like the idea of having their 'wealth' trickle down from others??? We are free people! We go for and earn what we get! This whole idea was and is un-American.

And now.... Romney and Boehner have classified "Job Creators"! It wasn't democrats that coined that class warfare term. Consider this stupid notion.. So, they want to support the job creators, as they define them, so they can create jobs... great idea... BUT how do I become a job creator??? Sure, I do all the hard entrepreneurial stuff and get it done, but why would existing job creators get government assistance? Ironic in a dirty way that they are against government unless it helps them as usual.

Streamfisher it's disingenuous to state the class warfare argument started with one party. There is no question that the democrats use this as a way to make people feel they are being treated unfairly. Let's looks at your other statement about trickle down theory. For this to be true the breaks would all have to go to one segment of society. Clearly this is not the case. As illustrated in previous posts even eithvsll of the supposed breaks the top 10% still foot most of the federal income tax bill. If we are going to analyze the policies of one party it's fair to analyze the policies of the other. The recession officially ended in 2009. We are 3 years removed from this recession. Our economy is stagnant at 1.8% GDP growth. There are 23 million folks underemployed or unemployed, real unemployment stands unchanged at 14%, The average family income has dropped by 4k, annual trillion dollar deficits are projected out for several years. Given the level of stimulus the government provided these numbers should be much better. Even with the argument that they inherited a mess. The combination of tarp, stimulus, fed monetary policy, as well as increased government spending amounts to trillions in real stimulus. The results of which you can see above but lets add to it. How about half of all college grads without a job? An increase in food stamps from 32 million to 48 million, and not one budget passed by the senate in 1300 days. no budget. They didn't even present one.

 

[lightenup]

Starting to sound like GST's off topic forum over here:nose-picking:

We need a leader right now. Obama has not been that guy. Time will tell if Mitt can be that guy. But we can't fix what's broken if only one party is brought to the table.

The two party system is what is broken.....party lines are drawn in the sand like the Maginot line in the French mountains..no one shall pass!!!! People voting party lines, because they are brain washed to believe whatever is spewed by the media, politicians voting for not what will fix problems, but what will make them look better to their party leaders.....we need an all out Blitzkrieg on the system created by our corrupt policy makers, a total revamp of the party system so politicians aren't interested in getting re-elected or moving up the parties pecking order, we need some politicians who work for the people instead of their party!!!!!
Who's with me?!?!?!?!

 

[streamfisher]

Streamfisher it's disingenuous to state the class warfare argument started with one party. There is no question that the democrats use this as a way to make people feel they are being treated unfairly.....

I disagree. This IS my point. Democrats don't think they are being treated differently. Nor do they argue that trickle down is unfair to THEM. They argue it is unfair, period. It doesn't work, period. I argue it's unamerican. It's not personally about about the rich and poor. It's about policy. Romney, again, is the one who makes it about people. This is mostly because he doesn't even know the difference between a corporation and a person. He looks at people much like a corp HR would - just a resource albeit a human one. This causes him to conflate. Hell, he even said Israel is a wealthier nation than Pakistan because of their culture. I guess Pakistan can have the best economic plan ever conceived but it's doomed to failure because they are a subpar people? Are democrats, in his mind, a lesser 'culture'? Suffice to say, he is the one doing the classifying.

 

[MACFLY]

Democrats every day get on tv, radio, and the like and rail against rich corporations screwing everyone, the rich getting all the tax breaks, the rich not paying their fair share, and the middle class getting screwed. This is the mantra they use to make people feel like they are being victimized. Subsequently you can go on plenty of social media sites and see these talking points being parroted by the masses. The message is clear. You are a victim, vote for me and I will make them pay. You can make this about Mitt Romney but this is really a larger issue about how divisive our politics and our country has become.

I disagree. This IS my point. Democrats don't think they are being treated differently. Nor do they argue that trickle down is unfair to THEM. They argue it is unfair, period. It doesn't work, period. I argue it's unamerican. It's not personally about about the rich and poor. It's about policy. Romney, again, is the one who makes it about people. This is mostly because he doesn't even know the difference between a corporation and a person. He looks at people much like a corp HR would - just a resource albeit a human one. This causes him to conflate. Hell, he even said Israel is a wealthier nation than Pakistan because of their culture. I guess Pakistan can have the best economic plan ever conceived but it's doomed to failure because they are a subpar people? Are democrats, in his mind, a lesser 'culture'? Suffice to say, he is the one doing the classifying.

 

[lightenup]

You can make this about Mitt Romney but this is really a larger issue about how divisive our politics and our country has become.

MY POINT EXACTLY!!!!! Thank you Macfly...the two party system has created an atmosphere where division is the only way to get your ideals in place.....it is corrupt and has no integrity....

 

[streamfisher]

I agree about the division, but it doesn't make me divisive if I'm pointing out Romney as being divisive. And I contend that his divisivness is at the very root as I contend he is the one who classifies people which fosters divisivness. For example, you speak of people feeling like victims. Romney is the ONLY person who referred to people as being victims and he was talking about half the country. Complaints or criticisms about how things are going should not be viewed as victimization. Forgive the expression, but only pyschopaths see things through pure victim/predator glasses. I make it about Mitt because we have an election two weeks from now and he is the current face of what could be the leader of the free world.

Democrats every day get on tv, radio, and the like and rail against rich corporations screwing everyone, the rich getting all the tax breaks, the rich not paying their fair share, and the middle class getting screwed. This is the mantra they use to make people feel like they are being victimized. Subsequently you can go on plenty of social media sites and see these talking points being parroted by the masses. The message is clear. You are a victim, vote for me and I will make them pay. You can make this about Mitt Romney but this is really a larger issue about how divisive our politics and our country has become.

 

[MACFLY]

You completely disregard the fact that this video was a recent revelation. Prior to that the narrative I described above has been in place for a long time. The president himself has made it a large part of his campaign for months. If you believe all of this divisiveness is because Romney said 47% see themselves as victims you purposely ignore all that has come before.

I agree about the division, but it doesn't make me divisive if I'm pointing out Romney as being divisive. And I contend that his divisivness is at the very root as I contend he is the one who classifies people which fosters divisivness. For example, you speak of people feeling like victims. Romney is the ONLY person who referred to people as being victims and he was talking about half the country. Complaints or criticisms about how things are going should not be viewed as victimization. Forgive the expression, but only pyschopaths see things through pure victim/predator glasses. I make it about Mitt because we have an election two weeks from now and he is the current face of what could be the leader of the free world.

 

[lightenup]

They are all as divisive as each other..it is just how they go about it.....47% pay no taxes.they are free loaders........rich people are greedy and dont do their share...it the same thing in different clothes........it makes me sick...

 

[sh4ne87]

They are all as divisive as each other..it is just how they go about it.....47% pay no taxes.they are free loaders........rich people are greedy and dont do their share...it the same thing in different clothes........it makes me sick...

47 percent are freeloaders? Two thirds pay a payroll tax and the rest are senior/veterans/disabled people. As someone else on this forum says, "get your facts straight, then distort them as you please." It would also benefit you if you refrained from watching fox news.

 

[MACFLY]

47 percent are freeloaders? Two thirds pay a payroll tax and the rest are senior/veterans/disabled people. As someone else on this forum says, "get your facts straight, then distort them as you please." It would also benefit you if you refrained from watching fox news.

Shane if you read his post without your own prejudice you would have realized that lightenup was referring to both parties being divisive. I love the comment about fox news. I guess Chris matthews, Al Sharpton, Rachel maddow, Soledad obrien, Lawrence odonnel, Andrea Mitchell, and the rest of the so called commentators on msnbc,CNN, and headline news are all objective.

Let me say this about tbe 47%. the point has been made that roughly 48% of Americans pay no FEDERAL income tax. Yes they pay payroll tax if they are working. EVeryone pays payroll tax. This was about what funds the federal government and the point can't be stressed that all the clamor about the rich not payin their fair share when nearly half pay no federal tax is pretty freaking stupid.

 

[sh4ne87]

Shane if you read his post without your own prejudice you would have realized that lightenup was referring to both parties being divisive. I love the comment about fox news. I guess Chris matthews, Al Sharpton, Rachel maddow, Soledad obrien, Lawrence odonnel, Andrea Mitchell, and the rest of the so called commentators on msnbc,CNN, and headline news are all objective.

Let me say this about tbe 47%. the point has been made that roughly 48% of Americans pay no FEDERAL income tax. Yes they pay payroll tax if they are working. EVeryone pays payroll tax. This was about what funds the federal government and the point can't be stressed that all the clamor about the rich not payin their fair share when nearly half pay no federal tax is pretty freaking stupid.

Msnbc is just as awful. News isnt necessarily there to inform you but rather to engage you. All we have anymore is murder, weather, fear, and an agenda for the left or right. And yea, a family of 4, struggling, making 50k not paying any taxes is absurd...

 

[MACFLY]

Msnbc is just as awful. News isnt necessarily there to inform you but rather to engage you. All we have anymore is murder, weather, fear, and an agenda for the left or right. And yea, a family of 4, struggling, making 50k not paying any taxes is absurd...

If that same family is getting some form of gov assistance yet still manages to buy LCD tvs,iPads, iPhones, 100 dollar sneakers,and has money left over for smokes and alcohol yeah it's ridiculous. Now Im smart enough to know that this description doesn't fit every family but you are going to have a hard time explaining how almost half the country pays nothing yet it's fair for the "rich" to pay more. If entitlements are important and paying taxes is patritotic as we are told thrn surely you can pay sonethng towards the federal gov. Of course this is largely by desgin. Democrats keep the benefits flowing to the permanent underclass in return for votes in much the same way republicans provide corporate welfare to their cnstituents. BTW way to duck my last post. Next time take a breath before you engage in a discussion.

 

[Trouser Trout]

If that same family is getting some form of gov assistance yet still manages to buy LCD tvs,iPads, iPhones, 100 dollar sneakers,and has money left over for smokes and alcohol yeah it's ridiculous. Now Im smart enough to know that this description doesn't fit every family but you are going to have a hard time explaining how almost half the country pays nothing yet it's fair for the "rich" to pay more. If entitlements are important and paying taxes is patritotic as we are told thrn surely you can pay sonethng towards the federal gov. Of course this is largely by desgin. Democrats keep the benefits flowing to the permanent underclass in return for votes in much the same way republicans provide corporate welfare to their cnstituents. BTW way to duck my last post. Next time take a breath before you engage in a discussion.

It is nearly impossible to calculate how much anyone pays in federal tax, although it is well documented what various wage earners pay in income tax, it is impossible to calculate what theypay the feds in other taxes like gasoline, tobacco, alcohol etc. These taxes are paid at the same rate by all users.

 

[fishhead]

I believe there are many in this country suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. The facts: 61% of people who do not pay income tax are working families. Others who do not pay are the elderly, students, and people with disabilities. Corporations are making record profits. The wealthy are getting wealthier. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being rich. There is something wrong with the rich paying a lower effective tax rate than those not as fortunate.

 

[lightenup]

47 percent are freeloaders? Two thirds pay a payroll tax and the rest are senior/veterans/disabled people. As someone else on this forum says, "get your facts straight, then distort them as you please." It would also benefit you if you refrained from watching fox news.

I watch the weather channel....those chicks are hot!!!!!!:hubbahubba:

I believe MACFLY said what I don't need to!!!!
I have made it more than obvious, I do not support a party, one of their candidates, or one of their networks, be it CNN or Fox....so, to be a bit inflammatory, "get YOUR facts straight, then distort them as you please"....

 

[streamfisher]

If that same family is getting some form of gov assistance yet still manages to buy LCD tvs,iPads, iPhones, 100 dollar sneakers,and has money left over for smokes and alcohol yeah it's ridiculous. Now Im smart enough to know that this description doesn't fit every family but you are going to have a hard time explaining how almost half the country pays nothing yet it's fair for the "rich" to pay more. If entitlements are important and paying taxes is patritotic as we are told thrn surely you can pay sonethng towards the federal gov. Of course this is largely by desgin. Democrats keep the benefits flowing to the permanent underclass in return for votes in much the same way republicans provide corporate welfare to their cnstituents. BTW way to duck my last post. Next time take a breath before you engage in a discussion.

In an earlier post you said that the victim 'narrative' didn't start with Romney. I agree. BUT, he is the first to get caught saying it out loud. Also, the narrative is NOT a democrat one. It's a republican one. You present an example of it in your response above. You put the words democrat and 'permanent underclass' in the same sentence as if this is the democrat agenda while it is YOUR view of the democrat agenda. As if democrats believe there is a permanent underclass while Romney clearly feels that way. So, in one sentence you defined a class of people and defined it as a permanent class and created the narrative. This is what the republican machine has been doing and Romney is the face. This is unamercian. Americans don't believe there is any difference between any peoples. Plain and simple.

 

[MACFLY]

Well thats a wonderful attempt at spin that falls on its face. If republicans viewed them as a permanent underclass then they would compete with the democrats to keep them that way. They clearly don't so your assertion that republicans feel that way is false. In addition there is ample evidence over many years that shows this is how democrats feel about their voting bloc. It's the dirty secret that isn't a secret at all. The whole mantra that the rich are screwing you is just the latest manifestation of that strategy and hey it's working . We now have more people on means tested welfare programs not less. This despite trillions of dollars in spending on these programs. Now why is that Streamfisher. Why are all these gov programs, state programs, and not to mention the myriad of private charitable contributions and assostancenot making a difference. Not lifting people out of poverty, not providing better living conditions, and better economic opportunity. The amount of money spent is staggering. The return abysmal.

 

[MACFLY]

I believe there are many in this country suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. The facts: 61% of people who do not pay income tax are working families. Others who do not pay are the elderly, students, and people with disabilities. Corporations are making record profits. The wealthy are getting wealthier. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being rich. There is something wrong with the rich paying a lower effective tax rate than those not as fortunate.

Who are the rich? Who are the wealthy? Put a definition behind it so we have some context. Let's compare effective tax rates and then let's compare what we actually pay in federal income tax. See when you generalize like this you open yourself up for all kinds of scrutiny. Your post implies that "the rich" all pay a lower tax rate. MALARKY. Show me the data that proves your statement. The last line is the kicker. You first carafe there is nothing wrong with being rich yet you follow that up by saying they should pay a higher tax rate then the less fortunate. That implies being rich happens because they were more fortunate then everyone else. I constantly here from my progressive friends how "the rich" are just lucky. They aren't any smarter, just fortunate. Well if it's that easy then we shouldn't be arguing. Go out and get more fortunate.

 

[streamfisher]

Well thats a wonderful attempt at spin that falls on its face. If republicans viewed them as a permanent underclass then they would compete with the democrats to keep them that way. They clearly don't so your assertion that republicans feel that way is false. In addition there is ample evidence over many years that shows this is how democrats feel about their voting bloc. It's the dirty secret that isn't a secret at all. The whole mantra that the rich are screwing you is just the latest manifestation of that strategy and hey it's working . We now have more people on means tested welfare programs not less. This despite trillions of dollars in spending on these programs. Now why is that Streamfisher. Why are all these gov programs, state programs, and not to mention the myriad of private charitable contributions and assostancenot making a difference. Not lifting people out of poverty, not providing better living conditions, and better economic opportunity. The amount of money spent is staggering. The return abysmal.

There are many reasons to consider other than that there is a 'class' of people (again your assertion) who are substandard. For example. revolutions. I don't mean war either. The Bronze Age, the Industrial revolution, The Information Age and the digital revolution, etc.. For example, I would go as far as to say that a lot of Clinton's success economically was due to the internet and technology boom and not him. Neither candidate has talked enough about how technology has been as much of a problem to workforce as outsourcing, maybe more. Have you seen the robots building cars now? The economic model is only part of the equation. Growth models should have been projected properly so that we would have been ready for the bubble to burst. It is silly to think that anyone would have believed there would be a boom without a bust. Why did we not plan for that?

note: I don't understand the underlined sentence. Are you saying that democrats want to keep the permanent underclass that way which would be futile since it is already permanent Again, pressing the notion that democrats believe there is an underclass? I'm sure I have both been exposed to the same history of our politics and I have never deduced that democrats believe there should be an underclass... Are there people who take advantage of rules? Yes! Both at the bottom AND the top! I don't classify them in any other way than individuals who have a propensity for gaming systems.