eddavidson9
how's that for a slice of fried gold
the adirondack and catskill parks are made up of public and private lands, designated for special protections. preserve lands are state held.
Give us a try!
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Posted Areas
- Thread starter sonny
- Start date
some examples:
Upper Delaware Scenic and Recreational River: National Park Service. Lots or private land in here.
Catskill Park:41% owned by NYS and managed by NYDEC. 5% owned by NYC and I guess 54% owned by private proerpty owners.
Adirondack Park 50% forest preserve 50% private property. I wonder if there is any private land in the forest preserve part.
Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area: National Park Service. Pretty sure there's some provate land in there.
It's all rhetorical question. It's funny though. I bet most land owners in these areas resent various government agencies dictating how their land can be used when in my opinion, these protections are what makes the land scarce and valuable.
Upper Delaware Scenic and Recreational River: National Park Service. Lots or private land in here.
Catskill Park:41% owned by NYS and managed by NYDEC. 5% owned by NYC and I guess 54% owned by private proerpty owners.
Adirondack Park 50% forest preserve 50% private property. I wonder if there is any private land in the forest preserve part.
Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area: National Park Service. Pretty sure there's some provate land in there.
It's all rhetorical question. It's funny though. I bet most land owners in these areas resent various government agencies dictating how their land can be used when in my opinion, these protections are what makes the land scarce and valuable.
Stonefly
Conservation isn't a tag line...
OK, I posted the state law so everyone could undestand what it says. How does that make me a communists? I've been hunting and fishing for 40 years or more and have never knowingly trespassed.
Kilgour Farms
I took the one less traveled by
NJAngler
Daily trifecta - brookies, browns and rainbows.
Geez by some peoples standards, the UPS delivery guy should get arrested for trespassing. I mean he walks right into buildings without knocking and, gasp, comes up driveways and leaves packages without permission! Whats this world coming too?
i think the bigger and saner argument is how own can own a moving body of water. to me its like saying you own the air around you.
ok you want to argue you don't own water but just the streambed? fine. I'll argue the streambed is ever changing and not fixed - just like the water. that streambed you "bought" 30 years ago has washed away and now lies somewhere in the next county. can anyone tell me exactly how deep into the ground you own? that would be interesting to know. it may come up in court one day when I choose to fight these ridiculous streambed ownership laws.
i think the bigger and saner argument is how own can own a moving body of water. to me its like saying you own the air around you.
ok you want to argue you don't own water but just the streambed? fine. I'll argue the streambed is ever changing and not fixed - just like the water. that streambed you "bought" 30 years ago has washed away and now lies somewhere in the next county. can anyone tell me exactly how deep into the ground you own? that would be interesting to know. it may come up in court one day when I choose to fight these ridiculous streambed ownership laws.
Big_Spinner
Trout Hunter
Hi,
Real property is defined to include everything on, the air above and the land below to the center of the earth.
These rights can be sold, leased or traded seperately from the other rights. Mineral or gas and oil rights for example.
From a practical standpoint, we give up some of our rights for the public good. Allowing airplanes to fly over our air space, for example.
You can gain or lose land depending on how your deed defines your property. For example, if your deed says "to the riverbank", you may lose or gain property if the river changes course.
Jim
Real property is defined to include everything on, the air above and the land below to the center of the earth.
These rights can be sold, leased or traded seperately from the other rights. Mineral or gas and oil rights for example.
From a practical standpoint, we give up some of our rights for the public good. Allowing airplanes to fly over our air space, for example.
You can gain or lose land depending on how your deed defines your property. For example, if your deed says "to the riverbank", you may lose or gain property if the river changes course.
Jim
Future Fanatic
Nirvana
Ridiculous, because you don't own one?
Why, because water happens to flow over ones land, does it make it any different than the air(as you pointed out) flowing over ones land. You can't say "oh I was in his backyard to breathe the air" OR more on point "to shoot the geese flying in the air over his house".
Please take it to court. Let us know how it goes...
Kilgour Farms
I took the one less traveled by
NY has two estates, surface and mineral while PA has three, surface, mineral, oil & gas estate. Not sure about Jersey? These estates can be severed and sold seperately.
mbwmn
“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?”
you wouldn't be the first, believe me. i had some interest when NYState was struggling to define "navigable water" and how it specifically applies to canoes and kayaks in the Adirondaks. i think that fight lasted over 20 years...i hope you have a law degree or deep pockets.
My property abuts some 60+ acres of Green Acres woods. It's owned by the County. A special permit is required to hunt there, per the many, many yellow signs posted along it's perimeter. There are at least 2 permanent tree stands withing the 400ft "safety zone" behind my house. Permits (and the many signs) specifically prevent "permanent structures" on this property, and there are dozens of empty shell casings and beer cans and liquor bottles beneath these stands. I've been back there several times each fall over the last 3 years (on Sunday) to clean up, and piss on the piles of corn these poachers bait deer with. It an 'extra bonus' day when one of my dogs leaves a nice steaming pile at the base of the trees...If you own one of these 2 stands and have consistantly ignored my posting of "Safety Zone" signs completely around the circumference of the tree it is on, and every tree surrounding it, please be careful. I suspect there may be some 'metal fatigue' affecting illegally placed permanent tree stands in this area. I see (during shotgun season) people with guns walking across my lawn (some 50+feet away from a clearly marked property line back in the woods) after 9pm at night, several nights in a row. I would have to assume that this might be the same person who let loose w/ 5 shots in rapid succession after 8:30pm. It's generally pretty dark by 5pm during shotgun season. It could possibly be the same person who I hear shooting on Sunday. Maybe its' the same people who leave me empty beer cans and vodka bottles ON MY PROPERTY.
Recently a neighbor of mine came up my drive and introduced himself. I knew him to be a neighbor after he mentioned which dogs he owned; we had never met. He asked permission to use my property to access the woods for bow hunting. It saves him almost a mile walk down to the end of the development. He showed a valid license and permit from the county. He text messages me when he (and sometimes a friend) are going in to hunt. He'll bring along a doggy treat in case mine arew out in the yard. He's offered to confront the 'poachers', as he also believes everyone should play by the same rules. He's been pulling plastic bags of garbage (shell casings, liquor bottles, beer cans) out. I've offered the use of my garden cart so he or his friends won't have to drag deer down the pavement half a block.
I can't keep poachers out of the county property, but I can certainly accomodate those that are willing to play by the rules, and I do.
I suspect more landowners might be willing to allow me access to fishing on their property when I ask if only someone before me hadn't trespassed.
(and why do poachers of game and fish drink such cheap booze?)
NJAngler
Daily trifecta - brookies, browns and rainbows.
If it ever comes to that, I will argue that water is free and cannot be owned. you can quote me on that.
we can go round and round on this but you won't ever convince me a moving body of water is something that can be owned or controlled by one person. a pond or lake? sure its all yours and I'll stay the hell away. but a stream? no way. I think its time I or somebody contacts state officials and get somebody to introduce a public domain bill making flowing water up to the high water mark public property. other states have it, so why can't NJ?
we can go round and round on this but you won't ever convince me a moving body of water is something that can be owned or controlled by one person. a pond or lake? sure its all yours and I'll stay the hell away. but a stream? no way. I think its time I or somebody contacts state officials and get somebody to introduce a public domain bill making flowing water up to the high water mark public property. other states have it, so why can't NJ?
NJAngler
Daily trifecta - brookies, browns and rainbows.
[quoteI suspect more landowners might be willing to allow me access to fishing on their property when I ask if only someone before me hadn't trespassed.
[/quote]
I appreciate your point of view on this topic. The problem is most lands are not posted by mr and mrs smith but by "X" club and no amount of begging or politeness will help. heck most times you can't even find out who owns the land - which in itself is probably not legal(signs are suppose to be signed by the owner)
[/quote]
I appreciate your point of view on this topic. The problem is most lands are not posted by mr and mrs smith but by "X" club and no amount of begging or politeness will help. heck most times you can't even find out who owns the land - which in itself is probably not legal(signs are suppose to be signed by the owner)
Rusty Spinner
Active member
I appreciate your point of view on this topic. The problem is most lands are not posted by mr and mrs smith but by "X" club and no amount of begging or politeness will help. heck most times you can't even find out who owns the land - which in itself is probably not legal(signs are suppose to be signed by the owner)[/quote]
NJAngler,
You have a couple of misconceptions here. First, NJ state law is not unchallenged and it was upheld in the courts so it remains the law of the land (and water, in this case). The state owns the water and if you can learn to walk upon it, you can fish on private land. As soon as you walk like a mortal on the stream bottom, you are trespassing. To change these laws in NJ, you would need to start with a constitutional amendment, a steep hill indeed. Then that law would need to be challenged all the way to the state supreme court. Assuming it passes all muster in the various court systems, then it would become the new law of the land. My guess is you can get this done for "only" a few million $$ assuming you have the 20+ years it may very well take just for the court system. Best of luck changing the state constitution first, though...
As for posting, both the legal landowner AND the legal lessee can post a property. This is why I pay my buddy with a $1 dollar bill each year, so I am the lessee of his hunting and fishing rights and our club can then post the property against trespass. You may not like these laws, but they are the laws for this state.
eddavidson9
how's that for a slice of fried gold
in NY it includes the "designee" of either the above...it doesnt in NJ? could be saving yourself that buck!
Trout Nazi
And...Boom goes the dynamite.
So, let me get this straight. I bust my ass working 8-7 for 15 years, finally buy myself a piece of prime property with a stream running through it, maintain it, build structure and streambank, but its not mine? I don't think so. Just because I have it, and you find it desirable, does not give you any rights to it. Too f'n bad pal. You may see it one way, because maybe you never sacrificed your time and finances to achieve it, but those of us who have see it quite the other way.
Its very simple, follow the rules and respect other peoples property. Not a genious concept to grasp here.
Its very simple, follow the rules and respect other peoples property. Not a genious concept to grasp here.
Rusty Spinner
Active member
Don't know, but for a single dollar it seems worth it just to pay up
. After all, the owner (and my nearly life-long friend) is putting us in his turbo prop tomorrow to fly us to our PA hunting camp with our dogs to hunt grouse and woodcock so the dollar seems very well spent, indeed. Probably wont buy him too much jet fuel, but he wouldn't ever think to ask for $$, he just wants me to manage his lands in NJ and take him hunting at my PA property with my bird dog(s). I love the barter system
mbwmn
“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?”
I think some other states (Montana is the only one that comes to mind) may allow access to NAVIGABLE waters up to the high water line. This is a recent change in Montana law (1990's I think?). It was done to promote tourism (fishing). You still can't walk through someone's property to GET TO the high water line. You either need to NAVIGATE there (boat), or access it at a bridge. The state does negotiate with some landowners to allow a public access easement. There is still huge contovery with some landowners purposely obstructing passage along the high water mark by felling trees...
I don't think this would work in NJ because of our liability laws...even if you could convince an owner to give up what is lawfully his by allowing access up to the high water mark...
Can you imagine a property owner being sued because a drunk fisherman fell and injured himself on a broken liquor bottle that he dropped on the way in? It would be pure negligence on the property owners' part not to be there to clean up after the trespasser...
Future Fanatic
Nirvana
Water is free? Have you not read the threads about the NYC Waterlords? I bet there are MANY that might dispute this claim. Hey, don't you municipal water users pay a water bill?
Anyway, bigger fish to fry...
Why limit yourself to rivers, creeks and streams! Water flows into a pond or lake and then, more than likely, flows out. That lake is just ONE BIG POOL in the stream! AND the water is free, right?! You have a GOSH DERN RIGHT to fish anywhere!!! Why stop there! Pull out all the stops. Since the water flows out of my tap and into my aquarium (and I can't own the water) It's YOUR RIGHT to fish for my guppies! (catch and release, is all I ask).
On a less sarcastic note... Can you give us a list of some of the states with these laws? I'd like to see how they are worded. Thanks.
Future Fanatic
Nirvana
I've been thinking about this one. I've concluded that when I buy a piece of property on a stream, the first thing I will do is paint every morsel of dirt and rock on the bottom of the stream bed, flourescent yellow. Over the years, as my streambed gets transported downstream, I will have places to stand in all the best pools downstream on through the next county or two. (I will also of course carry a can of flourescent yellow spray paint to make those parts of my property more numerous.)
mbwmn
“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?”
I don't want to be acused of deing a SPOT-BURNER,
but I hear there's a hatch coming up at a secret aquarium I read about online...there's mostly just stocky guppies, but lots of them!
You are definately due for a new avitar!
Future Fanatic
Nirvana
I don't want to be acused of deing a SPOT-BURNER,
but I hear there's a hatch coming up at a secret aquarium I read about online...there's mostly just stocky guppies, but lots of them!
You are definately due for a new avitar!
Not that I am Confirming or Denying anything in your post, but does anyone have a "fly recipe" for those tri-colored flakes of fish food(say size 28 hook)? (btw, I'd also like to stay away from petroleum-based synthetics).
NJAngler
Daily trifecta - brookies, browns and rainbows.
a) I'm not advocating trespassing at all. I condemn those who do it willfully and they deserve any punishment coming to them. as for others who may do it unknowingly by assuming a stream is okay to fish, I have no issues with them. you tell the landowner(s) sorry it was a mistake, you leave and don't ever come back. end of story.
b) As for landowners posting, they could release tigers to keep people out and I'd support it. Its your land so protect it at all costs.
I simply don't agree with our state and Pa laws regarding ownership of MOVING water. Thats all. I find it frustrating and unfair as I'm sure many others do. I hold no beefs against those who post or even clubs who lease. they are simply following the rules. But as history has taught us many times, rules can be changed. I for one hope they do.
Mark
b) As for landowners posting, they could release tigers to keep people out and I'd support it. Its your land so protect it at all costs.
I simply don't agree with our state and Pa laws regarding ownership of MOVING water. Thats all. I find it frustrating and unfair as I'm sure many others do. I hold no beefs against those who post or even clubs who lease. they are simply following the rules. But as history has taught us many times, rules can be changed. I for one hope they do.
Mark
Future Fanatic
Nirvana
'
Great as to all the other, but the question is WHY do you think the laws in Pa and NJ are "unfair"? WHY should the law be changed?
Speaking of which, can you post a few of those states WITH a law you like so I can peruse them?
dcabarle
Administrator
Like the game othelo? For every rock one of yours touches, you can paint those rocks flourescent yellow too?
Future Fanatic
Nirvana
Brilliant!
I submit to you all that our fine host's suppositon be made the law of this fine land! Never mind that you have no water! (You will).
Of course, we shall have our honored leaders argue(briefly) and enact this law most clandestinely, in order to enable the members of this site fair time to head on down to their prospective hardware stores to snap up any and all of the flourescent paint available. This way, the landed power of those here at NEFF shall GROW exponentially as they busily paint those pieces of their neighbors land on ALL sides which have the good fortune to touch a piece of NEFF members brightly hued border. Then we will move on to their neighbors and their neighbors up until we border some other NEFF member. We shall thus, take over the WORLD.
And of course, call the cops on any slob who stands on a flourescent rock in any one of our streams. Of course, they will all be flourescent.
NJAngler
Daily trifecta - brookies, browns and rainbows.
Montana and Utah have unlimited public access Many others have limited whereby its flotation only(like NJ). Other states have navigabilty laws which in essence makes any flowing body of water public if its navigable based upon any number of factors most of which go back to laws created in the 1800's. Still other states like Virginia (i think) have riparian laws which means if your property borders a stream, you have no rights to that stream. If however it runs through your property, you do have rights to it.
Listen I can't do all the research for you but if surf the web, you can find in great detail what each state does. below is one article I found which makes it clear they think public access is bad,bad,bad. you want to know why certain places get trashed or overfished? because 99.9% of anglers can only fish 5-10% of trout streams in their states thats why. yet another reason for changes.
http://www.perc.org/articles/article1124.php?view=print
NJA
Listen I can't do all the research for you but if surf the web, you can find in great detail what each state does. below is one article I found which makes it clear they think public access is bad,bad,bad. you want to know why certain places get trashed or overfished? because 99.9% of anglers can only fish 5-10% of trout streams in their states thats why. yet another reason for changes.
http://www.perc.org/articles/article1124.php?view=print
NJA
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eddavidson9
how's that for a slice of fried gold
is that why? i can follow his (your link's) logic...not yours just yet.
Kilgour Farms
I took the one less traveled by
If you have public access everywhere say like the Upper Delaware you guys would be looking for new waters to fish in only a few years.
The Upper Delaware is so good because of limited access.
By the way NYS goes by common law dating back to the early 1700's. They incorporated original english patents in the NYS constitution in 1789.
This is the main reason you have raparian rights including stream beds in NYS.
If a stream is navigable in law or fact you can float and no one can legally stop you. You can't however wade or anchor in those waters where raparian right to stream beds exsist.
You guys know I couldn't resist.
The Upper Delaware is so good because of limited access.
By the way NYS goes by common law dating back to the early 1700's. They incorporated original english patents in the NYS constitution in 1789.
This is the main reason you have raparian rights including stream beds in NYS.
If a stream is navigable in law or fact you can float and no one can legally stop you. You can't however wade or anchor in those waters where raparian right to stream beds exsist.
You guys know I couldn't resist.
NJ Angler
What rivers in NJ would you consider navigable, the Pequest, Muskie South Branch ??
I could see an fleet of drift boats going down these rivers to fish private sections. You
can't compare NJ to Montana, you could fit all of the above practically into the Madison.
As stated by Kilgour also no wading or stopping in these areas either.
What rivers in NJ would you consider navigable, the Pequest, Muskie South Branch ??
I could see an fleet of drift boats going down these rivers to fish private sections. You
can't compare NJ to Montana, you could fit all of the above practically into the Madison.
As stated by Kilgour also no wading or stopping in these areas either.