Paulinskill hydro plant

[Stonefly]

<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 1.5pt; mso-yfti-tbllook: 1184; mso-padding-alt: 2.25pt 2.25pt 2.25pt 2.25pt" cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Hydroelectric power project would net township $5M annually <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
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</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 2; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"><TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="WIDTH: 187.5pt; mso-cellspacing: 1.5pt; mso-yfti-tbllook: 1184; mso-padding-alt: 2.25pt 2.25pt 2.25pt 2.25pt; mso-table-lspace: 2.25pt; mso-table-rspace: 2.25pt; mso-table-anchor-vertical: paragraph; mso-table-anchor-horizontal: column; mso-table-left: left" cellPadding=0 width=250 align=left border=0><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 2.25pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 2.25pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 2.25pt; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; PADDING-TOP: 2.25pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>By SETH AUGENSTEIN newton herald jan. 1228, 2009
SPARTA -- Town officials are gushing about a $2 billion hydroelectric project at the Limecrest Quarry unveiled Tuesday night.
The council struck an agreement with Riverbank Power Corporation of Toronto, which would produce 1,000 megawatts of potentially-green energy that would supply a regional power grid in the Northeast during peak hours.
If finalized, the project would bring $5 million annually to the township, or about 25 percent of its current budget, through taxes and rent.
It also would create about 1,00 construction jobs for four years and an additional 50-75 permanent jobs once the site is operational in 2015.
Riverbank and Sparta also see it as something more -- a groundbreaking "green" energy project for the state.
"It might be one of the most-studied projects in the history of New Jersey," said John Douglas, the president and CEO of Riverbank.
Douglas' presentation gave a simple overview of a massive and complex project.
Riverbank Power would drill a 2,000-foot shaft deep into a scooped-out, second reservoir underneath the current aquifer. The manmade waterfall would turn four enormous turbines, generating electricity at the subterranean plant during peak day hours. At off-peak night hours, the water would be pumped back up to the reservoir using traditional power sources -- generating power and profit without disturbing the natural aquifer.
There still are major environmental tests, approvals and hurdles to be overcome, including the initial drilling to determine if the site is right for the construction. Township officials said much of the work had been discussed at preliminary stages with all levels of government so far, including the state Department of Environmental Protection.
Another hurdle is the current quarrying lease agreement with Limecrest Quarry Developers struck late last year. That lease followed several lawsuits over rightful ownership of the quarry.
The council and Town Attorney Tom Ryan conceded that more negotiations needed to be worked out between Limecrest, Riverbank and the township, but those negotiations were proceeding well.
In September, the township and Limecrest Quarry Developers struck a deal that would extend the company's lease an extra 20 years through 2037.
The deal also required the company to mine a certain amount of material annually, and increased the town's cut of the profits by an additional $200,000 annually.
It is unknown how the proposed Riverbank deal would affect that agreement.
"Right now, I think we're working quite well together," said Mayor Brian Brady.
Eugene Mulvihill, the co-owner of Limecrest, said the project was the wave of the future.
"This is 100 percent green," Mulvihill said. "We don't just talk the talk; we walk the walk."
Residents' concerns included drilling and disturbances during the night, but all said they were impressed with the vision of the project.
"This sounds like a wonderful idea . . . in this day and age, when we're so dependent on foreign oil," said Charlie Marcino.
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[AKSkim]

Lot of words...

How would Readers Digest say it?

Better yet, do you have a picture?

 

[kindanewbie77]

Yeah:iagree:


It isn't too far from where I live, I am curious where they would plan to put something like that...that would be a huge footprint. Isn't part of the Paulinskill a TCA? Would the effect be on that?

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Stonefly,

Problem as I just emailed you is that we don't have nearly enough information to determine how, if at all, this will hurt the Paulinskill. If water flows through a turbine and heats up, bad. If we suddenly get lots of cold water again, good. My guess (only a guess) is that water will continue to flow in the same way it is today and that the old TCA up there is dead and gone.

Also, I am seeing thousands of these projects being "sold" around the country just as this article is designed to do. This is one of millions of attempts to get funds from the economic stimulus package and the word "green" will be attached to everything in order to get the proper attention. Since this possible boondoggle is nowhere near "shovel ready" it won't see any public funding (if that package comes through the House and Senate) in round one for certain. Without public funding it won't happen at all. Also, we all know Gene Mulvihill and his antics and if you are smart you won't walk within a thousand yards of him for fear of the taint he could bring on others...

 

[CR]

It sounds like a closed system - the water will be pumped "back up" to the reservoir. Sounds a little like Yards Creek near Blairstown - that huge pipe you see going up the hill to the reservoir on top. If that's the case, it wouldn't change the flow of the river one bit.

 

[JeffK]

The whole thing is probably shaky. There have been similar plans to use the abandoned Mt Hope iron mines in Rockaway Township and all the digging there is already done. The surface quarry would act as the upper reservoir and the mines would act as the lower reservior and the penstock would run down a mine shaft. If a similar plan where everything is already dug out and is in an old industrial site hasn't been able to get over the hump it seems like a plan which requires digging the shafts and an underground reservior 2000 ft down (mines go below 2000') and is in an environmentally sensitive area would be a harder sell.

 

[Pete]

Is "off peak" power less expensive? If not they're going to lose money.

They're going to generate electricity first... then they're going to use electricity to pump the water back up...so they can generate .. so they can pump ...so they can generate....etc...etc...

Did they change the laws of thermodynamics since I was in school? Can they now achieve more than 100% efficiency, and finally invent the elusive perpetual motion machine?

 

[eddavidson9]

Did they change the laws of thermodynamics since I was in school? Can they now achieve more than 100% efficiency, and finally invent the elusive perpetual motion machine?

Pumped-storage hydro facilities are somewhat common (see the wikipedia article for a discussion of the practice Pumped-storage hydroelectricity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

essentially, yes, it is energetically ineffecient, but it does exactly what you asked, uses cheap off-peak energy to store water to use in generating more expensive peak-demand energy.

They are often controversial because of where people want to locate them (ie river- or lake-side hills/mountains).

 

[NJpatbee]

I am no expect in this area, but is there any way to accomplish the goals of the hydro plant and get the cold spring water (that was pumped from the Limecrest Quarry) back into the river? It sounds like it is in the very early stages, and perhaps TU National could provide some expertise.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

I am no expect in this area, but is there any way to accomplish the goals of the hydro plant and get the cold spring water (that was pumped from the Limecrest Quarry) back into the river? It sounds like it is in the very early stages, and perhaps TU National could provide some expertise.

FYI - I forwarded a copy of the article along with my background comments to Kirk Mayland, TUs Director of Eastern Water Project and our attorney in this area.

 

[Drossi]

Is "off peak" power less expensive? If not they're going to lose money.

They're going to generate electricity first... then they're going to use electricity to pump the water back up...so they can generate .. so they can pump ...so they can generate....etc...etc...

Did they change the laws of thermodynamics since I was in school? Can they now achieve more than 100% efficiency, and finally invent the elusive perpetual motion machine?

Off-peak power can be less of a rate to the generator but not the consumer. Mostly it refers to power generated at a time of less need. If there is any pm's needed you would do them on off peak hours, generally if power contracts don't penalize you if you lessen generate off-peak. That said off-peak in this area really is only say midnight to 5am or there abouts.

 

[klg neighbor]

There is no off-peak discount where physics is concerned.

 

[Salfont]

CR is correct, it's exactly like Yards Creek Pumped Storage that produces 400 Megawatts of electricity. It takes 3 MW at off-peak hours to pump the water up for every 2 MW generated during peak hours. Mulvihill's claim that it is 100% green is a lot of bunk, that is unless he can prove that every MW of power consumed to pump water up is also 100% clean. Here in NJ it'll be a combination of coal, nuclear and gas.

The plant will need to keep the upper reservoir at a proper level so it will continually pull some water from the Paulinskill. There shouldn't be any water discharged into creek since it would contain pollutants from the process.

 

[Piney Pete]

the only way to make this viable is to use wind turbines to power the pumps to fill the resivior to then generate at peak times into the lower closed loop system only draws water to replace losses my idea pat pending

 

[eddavidson9]

shouldn't be any water discharged into creek since it would contain pollutants from the process.

how/why? are we assuming the underground reservoir itself will be contaminating the water?

If it is sold as using available low-demand energy to create high-demand energy (even at a loss), and thereby prevent building a new pollution-creating energy source (eg, coal fired plant), it could pass as "green"...but there are so many local factors (hydrology, aesthetics, etc) that green billing of these projects is tough.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Sparta needs to factor in that this is also a drinking water supply reservoir so contaminated water won't fly (if that is the case).

What do you expect from Mulvihill - just another way to get into county/state/local pockets and milk them for all he can.

 

[Future Fanatic]

the only way to make this viable is to use wind turbines to power the pumps to fill the resivior to then generate at peak times into the lower closed loop system only draws water to replace losses my idea pat pending

Not so fast...

NJ has plenty of bears that you guys could put on treadmills or big versions of hamster wheels... That's green, yes?

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Not so fast...

NJ has plenty of bears that you guys could put on treadmills or big versions of hamster wheels... That's green, yes?

Good idea but King Corzine tells us that all of our bears come across our border from NY and PA so we'd have to pay some sort of royalties to those states.

Evidently, Corzine has a degree in wildlife biology that he doesn't like to talk about in public

 

[kindanewbie77]

Good idea but King Corzine tells us that all of our bears come across our border from NY and PA so we'd have to pay some sort of royalties to those states.

Evidently, Corzine has a degree in wildlife biology that he doesn't like to talk about in public

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

 

[Matt Grobert]

quote=Rusty Spinner;132839]Good idea but King Corzine tells us that all of our bears come across our border from NY and PA so we'd have to pay some sort of royalties to those states.

Evidently, Corzine has a degree in wildlife biology that he doesn't like to talk about in public[/quote]

Yup, it's a B.S. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Matt ><)))))'>

 

[Rusty Spinner]

quote=Rusty Spinner;132839]Good idea but King Corzine tells us that all of our bears come across our border from NY and PA so we'd have to pay some sort of royalties to those states.

Evidently, Corzine has a degree in wildlife biology that he doesn't like to talk about in public

Yup, it's a B.S. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Matt ><)))))'>[/quote]