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Ost-ffmp
- Thread starter JOE.T
- Start date
Big_Spinner
Trout Hunter
Thanks Joe!!
NYC still manipulates this decision making process.
Notice that the "available water" is 733 cfs. This puts us in Table E, which is nice, BUT, they made the decision and now will try to sit on this change for a month.
I think that if the decision were made today or the next few days, we would have the extra 17 cfs to put us in Table F or G and have a 500 cfs release on the WB.
We really need NYC to produce this report on a weekly basis like the DRBC produces their summary table. It would help to see trends and where we can expect to be.
Jim
NYC still manipulates this decision making process.
Notice that the "available water" is 733 cfs. This puts us in Table E, which is nice, BUT, they made the decision and now will try to sit on this change for a month.
I think that if the decision were made today or the next few days, we would have the extra 17 cfs to put us in Table F or G and have a 500 cfs release on the WB.
We really need NYC to produce this report on a weekly basis like the DRBC produces their summary table. It would help to see trends and where we can expect to be.
Jim
JOE.T
Dry Flies Only
Hey Jim
I'm not complaining that's for sure.400 CFS is better than 260 CFS
At least now fisherman can spread out and have good temps to Parker on the WB.I'm sure it will help with our summer hatches as well.
And for the drift boat crew it works better also.
Joe.T
Big_Spinner
Trout Hunter
Hi Joe,
IF, this is a big IF, we had someone to "manage" the water releases, it is conceivable that with this high water event, we could make the release 350 instead of 400 or 500 and "bank" the water that we do not use now for thermal relief later.
This is of course one of the issues that we dealt with in the formation of the FFMP. There was no one to "manage" the releases from NYS DEC, so higher continuous releases from the tables were suggested. Although this should be their responsibility. Perhaps the fishing community ponies up $20,000 per year for a DRBC person or Rivermaster person to administer the releases for the ecology of the rivers. It would sure have to be some sort of iron clad agreement. I hate to even have to consider this as an option, but perhaps it could be implemented more quickly. Maybe even the decree parties would pay for it, to shut everyone up.
Just a thought,
jim
IF, this is a big IF, we had someone to "manage" the water releases, it is conceivable that with this high water event, we could make the release 350 instead of 400 or 500 and "bank" the water that we do not use now for thermal relief later.
This is of course one of the issues that we dealt with in the formation of the FFMP. There was no one to "manage" the releases from NYS DEC, so higher continuous releases from the tables were suggested. Although this should be their responsibility. Perhaps the fishing community ponies up $20,000 per year for a DRBC person or Rivermaster person to administer the releases for the ecology of the rivers. It would sure have to be some sort of iron clad agreement. I hate to even have to consider this as an option, but perhaps it could be implemented more quickly. Maybe even the decree parties would pay for it, to shut everyone up.
Just a thought,
jim
JOE.T
Dry Flies Only
Hi Jim
I'm all for banking the water if we don't need it like as of right now, and especially if it's used for thermal relief.
If you feel that if someone was managing the releases and that would benefit the fishery I think the fishing community would figure out a way quickly to raise the funds if necessary.
Joe.T
I'm all for banking the water if we don't need it like as of right now, and especially if it's used for thermal relief.
If you feel that if someone was managing the releases and that would benefit the fishery I think the fishing community would figure out a way quickly to raise the funds if necessary.
Joe.T
brachycentrus
Just finished a River Runs Through it!
Jim,
Wasn't that one of the problems with the IERQ or some part of the plan. The water was unused by the end of the calendar year. Every year, there was a surplus and there was always times when it should have been used. I don't like the idea of banking water. Hell 2 weeks ago when we needed it, they said no but they were willing to give us an increase for the One Bug. Cant trust them for anything. I would support the idea of a trout stamp if you fish anywhere on the system and the monies would be dedicated for the river use so at the end of the year, it didn't disappear but carried over for projects like clearing the trib mouths or finding out the source of the green slime and siltation problems.
JOE.T
Dry Flies Only
Jeff what if the banked water was guaranteed to be used in a written plan,has it been up until now? I don't know.
Love the idea of a trout stamp being used on the Delaware system for all of the above.I think if the fishing community contributed financially in some way it could only strengthen our position at the negotiating table.
The green men didn't show up last night.
Big_Spinner
Trout Hunter
Hi Brachy,
I think that Joe is exactly correct about this.
IERQ was available for "emergencies, etc.", not dedicated to the fishery and river health.
Remember, the decree parties did give up some of the IERQ that was used to make the tables releases higher.
I am all in for a stamp, everything needs to be ironclad so that the money and the water get used for the intended purpose.
Jim
I think that Joe is exactly correct about this.
IERQ was available for "emergencies, etc.", not dedicated to the fishery and river health.
Remember, the decree parties did give up some of the IERQ that was used to make the tables releases higher.
I am all in for a stamp, everything needs to be ironclad so that the money and the water get used for the intended purpose.
Jim
NJFred
Trout Hunter
I'm all for banking water... if... if.. as Brachy says we get it and use it. A simpler approach could be a mandatory thermal release trigger (like in my plan I posted a while back). I've been advocating this for years since they took it out of any flow plan Frankly it's good for both the fishery and NYC.
The last 6 weeks have proved, again, why we should have it in the plan, at least as a fine tuning approach. In May we had 150 CFS most of the month and then 200CFS toward the end of the month. The fishery cooked on a number of days... not just the lower main but even in Junction and the lower WBD. All this with 95% full reservoirs at normal levels. Now we have cool ambients and lots of flow but Stillesvillle at 450CFS, Hale at something 850CFS, the lower east at 1350CFS (water temps below peaks of 66 over the last 3 days). SO NYC IS NOW WASTING WATER. We would be fine with a lower release.
The bottom line is that a mandatory thermal trigger would be good for both the fishery and NYC.
The last 6 weeks have proved, again, why we should have it in the plan, at least as a fine tuning approach. In May we had 150 CFS most of the month and then 200CFS toward the end of the month. The fishery cooked on a number of days... not just the lower main but even in Junction and the lower WBD. All this with 95% full reservoirs at normal levels. Now we have cool ambients and lots of flow but Stillesvillle at 450CFS, Hale at something 850CFS, the lower east at 1350CFS (water temps below peaks of 66 over the last 3 days). SO NYC IS NOW WASTING WATER. We would be fine with a lower release.
The bottom line is that a mandatory thermal trigger would be good for both the fishery and NYC.
Big_Spinner
Trout Hunter
Some really good ideas here!
I would think that some testing of these ideas and perhaps others could be done to determine what might be best for the rivers.
Jim
I would think that some testing of these ideas and perhaps others could be done to determine what might be best for the rivers.
Jim
JOE.T
Dry Flies Only
Hey Jim
Wow another report ! Looks like a new trend to me.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/pdf/ffmp/OST-FFMP_Summary_2015-06-22.pdf
Wow another report ! Looks like a new trend to me.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/pdf/ffmp/OST-FFMP_Summary_2015-06-22.pdf
Big_Spinner
Trout Hunter
Hi Joe,
Yep, even NYC could not fudge the data anymore!!
Look at the last two tables and you can see there should be some water available for thermal relief.
The June 15th table was changed to Table E, probably the day before we would have been in Table F.
This means that there were 7 days that the system should have been in Table F or G, but stayed in Table E. There is 700 cfs/days of water in the reservoir that did not go down the river the last few days.
Have to keep NYC on their toes or heels, depending on your perspective.
Jim
Yep, even NYC could not fudge the data anymore!!
Look at the last two tables and you can see there should be some water available for thermal relief.
The June 15th table was changed to Table E, probably the day before we would have been in Table F.
This means that there were 7 days that the system should have been in Table F or G, but stayed in Table E. There is 700 cfs/days of water in the reservoir that did not go down the river the last few days.
Have to keep NYC on their toes or heels, depending on your perspective.
Jim
NJFred
Trout Hunter
Good thing NYC hoarded all that water in May even through the reservoirs where 95% full. Now that water will go over the top of the dams starting Monday with large mass of rain coming today and tomorrow and reservoirs at 99% full. At least it will move some of that silt on the bottom of the river up top and possibly dump some silver protein packets into the water for the Big Boys.
Big_Spinner
Trout Hunter
Hi Fred,
Exactly Fred,
Looks like we will not get as much rain as predicted, but the reservoirs will probably still spill.
Still illustrates the uncertainty of weather predictions.
NYC was trying to predict out into the future and say that we were in for a sustained dry period. Just not possible at this time.
Probably too late for the alewives. The surface water is probably too warm to have alewives swimming up near the surface.
Jim
Exactly Fred,
Looks like we will not get as much rain as predicted, but the reservoirs will probably still spill.
Still illustrates the uncertainty of weather predictions.
NYC was trying to predict out into the future and say that we were in for a sustained dry period. Just not possible at this time.
Probably too late for the alewives. The surface water is probably too warm to have alewives swimming up near the surface.
Jim
JOE.T
Dry Flies Only
Looks like the Neversink is spilling, and I imagine the Pepacton should spill very soon.Maybe today.If so will they release from the bottom or allow it to come over the top?
I believe the Alewifes hang in the thermocline level.
moosekid
Handsomest Neff Member
What makes you think it spilled on Monday?? I haven't been checking the gauge for long enough to know what to look for....but I think its spilling right now 'cause it shot up to 900 CFS in a very short period of time.
Big_Spinner
Trout Hunter
Hi Moose,
Check this site out. If you click on the reservoirs it gives near real time levels.
Advanced Hydrologic Prediction Service: Binghamton
Current conditions sure makes NYC look silly for being so miserly with their water earlier this year.
Jim
Check this site out. If you click on the reservoirs it gives near real time levels.
Advanced Hydrologic Prediction Service: Binghamton
Current conditions sure makes NYC look silly for being so miserly with their water earlier this year.
Jim
JOE.T
Dry Flies Only
For one the Neversink was at 100.6% Capacity on Monday
Current Reservoir Levels
Also the gauge at Neversink was on the rise..That means it's spilling.That's the gauge below the reservoir.
USGS Current Conditions for USGS 01436000 NEVERSINK RIVER AT NEVERSINK NY
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