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Looks like another rough week ahead
- Thread starter Big_Spinner
- Start date
trico mike
make mine wild
I remember guys saying the flows in winter had been horrible and should have been more. One question I have is if ny was releasing more water in the winter what would the reservoir percentage be now instead of the 96 % it stands at now. We all are concerned about the health of the trout but they have and always will survive. Just look at major pa streams penns,little j ect. They all have thermal issues. I don't see anybody complaining to god for more water. Now this is just my opinion bit it seems the ones that complain the most are guides. They want to be able to drift the west lower east in the spring. That didn't really happen this year so they concentrated on the main. If they really cared about the fish maybe they shouldn't pound the same fish day in and day out. I find it humorous watching boat after boat setting up on the same pods of fish. Maybe let them eat.
NJFred
Trout Hunter
Mike... You offer a very dangerous proposition. "we are all concerned about the health of the trout but they have and always will survive" implying we shouldn't take action to protect a wild trout fishery. Standing by and watching is not an option my friend. Look what's happened to the wild salmon populations.
Not doing what we can to improve wild trout populations would result in put and take stockie fisheries. Trust me... this would have happened to the Delaware long ago. And by the way... I'm not a guide, nor are many others here advocating for the fishery.
trico mike
make mine wild
Fred,I do agree something needs to be done to protect all wild trout fisheries. I merely point out that some people's interests are more selfish then others. My comments were not directed towards you. There is no simple solution to what is going on and the more the fishing community is divided on what the flow plan should be the more ny laufghs and does what it wants. Why would they take us serious when we can't even agree what is best. It is sad to see someone trying to do good and taking so much crap.
Rusty Spinner
Active member
Thanks for that, Joe T, I needed a good laugh after seeing our low, warm rivers today. The "TU" you refer to would be me and me alone, Brian Cowden. I raised 100% of those funds to fix what you call a stocked river in NJ. So thanks for pointing out that it was a fortune because I worked my ass off for every penny. Yes, 100% of my salary, overhead, and my project costs I alone raised to help native brook trout in the so-called stocked NJ river. Same for my good friend Joe Norton in Vermont, working on native trout in a river system that has supported that species since the receding of the Wisconsin glacier some 15,000 years ago.
Now, please enlighten us with the specifics of your accomplishments to improve flows on the upper D. I'll wait. In fact, let me pop some more popcorn while I do so.
WBDluver
Official NEFF pot stirrer
No, If you do some research you will see that the Rainbows were accidently introduced into the Delaware in 1884 by Dan Cahill of Port Jervis NY. So the fish have been surviving without the cold water release Just as they survive in other rivers. The damns made a better fishery but they did not make the fishery.
WBDluver
Official NEFF pot stirrer
Thanks for that, Joe T, I needed a good laugh after seeing our low, warm rivers today. The "TU" you refer to would be me and me alone, Brian Cowden. I raised 100% of those funds to fix what you call a stocked river in NJ. So thanks for pointing out that it was a fortune because I worked my ass off for every penny. Yes, 100% of my salary, overhead, and my project costs I alone raised to help native brook trout in the so-called stocked NJ river. Same for my good friend Joe Norton in Vermont, working on native trout in a river system that has supported that species since the receding of the Wisconsin glacier some 15,000 years ago.
Now, please enlighten us with the specifics of your accomplishments to improve flows on the upper D. I'll wait. In fact, let me pop some more popcorn while I do so.
You sir derserve a small coffee and I will buy. I was offering to take Beetle and Macfly in my boat (sort of like a hands across the water peace float) but now I am kicking them out so you can have a seat. The offer stands until they start releasing water.
. No, serioulsy, if you ever want to just pm me.
JOE.T
Dry Flies Only
Thanks for that, Joe T, I needed a good laugh after seeing our low, warm rivers today. The "TU" you refer to would be me and me alone, Brian Cowden. I raised 100% of those funds to fix what you call a stocked river in NJ. So thanks for pointing out that it was a fortune because I worked my ass off for every penny. Yes, 100% of my salary, overhead, and my project costs I alone raised to help native brook trout in the so-called stocked NJ river. Same for my good friend Joe Norton in Vermont, working on native trout in a river system that has supported that species since the receding of the Wisconsin glacier some 15,000 years ago.
Now, please enlighten us with the specifics of your accomplishments to improve flows on the upper D. I'll wait. In fact, let me pop some more popcorn while I do so.
Brian you missed the point.
Why is so little done by TU for the Upper Delaware ? The best wild trout fishery east of the Rockies?
I'd love to hear why The musky in NJ gets all the money and attention but the D is treated like the Vagabond on the street.
Nobody in my opinion has accomplished anything, but some of us have put time in, and Jim Serio has spent probably more time than most I know.
Rusty Spinner
Active member
First, to say that TU has done very little is misinformed. The state councils of PA, NJ and NY have been active for a long, long time in the fight and they work at times with staff as well as with FUDR and others. As far as obtaining funding to hire someone, who do you think as far as a grant agency or a private foundation would want to sink funding into paying salary and overhead to fight city hall in a situation where the US Supreme Court has issued a binding ruling? Add to that two non-native trout species in a tailwater situation and you should find your answer. But that doesn't mean they are doing nothing (see above).
Now if you were a member, you would know all of that. My point to you is to join one of the groups you so enjoy railing against and try to make a difference from the inside. That is exactly why I joined TU and got involved about 15 or so years ago. Yes, one individual can make a big difference. Criticizing from afar sounds like nothing more than white noise to most here.
TR
"You can observe a lot just by watching." Y. Berra
----
Good morning Brian.
And therein lies the answer as well as the problem.
You're very estute and I hope to meet you one day.
It is:
The 1954 Supreme Court Decree.
To email and call the Mayor of New York City and the NYC DEP is certainly "grassroots" {Read: Fracking} - but, as opposed to fracking five years ago when most people thought Marcellus Shale was a rap singer:
1. You just don't have the numbers.
2. Even if the official of the city of New York listened, they would come back and state (correctly) that wasn't it individuals (like Serio and Kolesar via FUDR) that knew and fished the river who presented their plans to RFAC and DRBC and the city and state did listen and implemented FFMP ("The Plan") which we have today.
Tight lines,
TR
JOE.T
Dry Flies Only
So being a board member of the DRF years ago and than joining the FUDR is white noise ? WTF are you brain dead.
I am on the inside, you just don't know me..So before you point fingers and make innuendos about me you should call your Friend Jeff Church and ask him how involved I've been for many years. Or better yet meet us both up there one day and we'll both enlighten you on what you obviously do not know.
That is a direct invite to you Brian Cowden , so tell me when you'll be up there again ? I like to see the whites of someones eyes when I talk to them.
And you what I'll meet any of you Keyboard muscle boys to fish and explain what is really happening.Just let me know.
I'm one of the good guys, you need chill.
BTW National TU is nowhere to be found on this issue.They jumped in after the FUDR was formed and than disappeared.
You need funding to hire a lobbyist as Dennis Watson has suggested, you also need funding to do stream research.(you should know that)
You also need to hire a real negotiator, and someone than can actually put a real business plan together.
National TU needs to put there money where there mouth is!
trico mike
make mine wild
National tu is missing in action on a lot of cold water fisheries. They leave this work to local chapters which for the most part are a joke. A social club for middle aged guys who do their yearly stream cleanup so they can pat themselves on the back and say how much good they are doing. Then they ha e their barbacues and plan out of state fishing trips. I like to know where th is in the lhv as all the cold water fisheries that were once teeming with wild trout degrade. Maybe they could take a lesson from some of the better chapters like Cumberland valley tu,who always seem to be doing something. One of the few chapters that vet stuff done.
Rusty Spinner
Active member
So lead that charge - be that person! That's exactly how I wound up as the Musconetcong Home Rivers Initiative Coordinator for TU. I took the bull by the horns and didn't walk away when things got tough.
JOE.T
Dry Flies Only
Do you even know what some of us are doing behind the scenes ? You don't that is my point.
You don't know me ,yet you make assumptions and innuendos like you do.
Like I said Fish with Jeff and I ,Or just me and I'll enlighten you on what has really gone on for 30 years, and what is happening going forward.
lightenup
A fan of Boobery
I had the same experience with TU....wanted to get a local WTS cleaned up....it is in a national park. I went to meetings...brought up the problem....contacted the park service...got permission and a park ranger to help us and guide us through the area....then I got snubbed by TU......
That's not our chapters area. ...we don't play well with the park service... you are wasting your time, it will just get messy again....
These were the things the chapter president said to me...The NPS was more willing to help........needless to say it was a turn off....I still belong to TU...but find it hard to get involved as others have said they are very selective and if you don't have the time to dedicate because of a full time job you must follow whatever they decide to do....not knocking you Brian, the work you have done in NJ is much appreciated, but the organization as a whole, in my opinion and experience needs to be more willing to listen. .......all I was asking for was a few volunteers on a Summer Sunday to pick up some garbage..and I got shot down........bad taste in the mouth....
That's not our chapters area. ...we don't play well with the park service... you are wasting your time, it will just get messy again....
These were the things the chapter president said to me...The NPS was more willing to help........needless to say it was a turn off....I still belong to TU...but find it hard to get involved as others have said they are very selective and if you don't have the time to dedicate because of a full time job you must follow whatever they decide to do....not knocking you Brian, the work you have done in NJ is much appreciated, but the organization as a whole, in my opinion and experience needs to be more willing to listen. .......all I was asking for was a few volunteers on a Summer Sunday to pick up some garbage..and I got shot down........bad taste in the mouth....
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
TR did you or anyone else who is complaining have a better plan that would have been agreed to by the decree parties. This has been going on for a long time and like others on this site all I hear from folks like yourself is how bad the current plan is and it's all Serios fault. Seriously I remember Jim posting threads here to help do River cleanups and knotweed remediation inviting folks to join him. Seriously what's your plan. The guides have the most to gain from stable flows. Form your group and present your ideas. Otherwise it's just complaining ams blaming someone like Jim Serio is pretty counterproductive.
FIN-ITE 34
Well-known member
It is my observation that with a problem as large and complicated as this, that the ONLY entity that would have any chance of bringing meaningful change would be a national organization. Fighting NYC would require a lot of money, lawyers and PR. It would seem to me that National TU is the only one capable of supplying all of these needed tools. Does TU as a national organization have any interest in brokering a plan that would have some positive impact on the upper Delaware? And if not, why not?
lightenup
A fan of Boobery
I have what I think is a reasonable question....if it isn't I am sure I will be told....
Here is TU's mission statement...
"To conserve, protect and restore North America's coldwater fisheries and their watersheds."
Is the Delaware river watershed considered a "coldwater" fishery or watershed? it seems as if it is some of the time, and some of the time it is a warm water fishery dependent on the man made dams to keep it cool. Granted the trout can survive the summer if there were no dams, but it is not a C&R fishery for many months because of the rise in water temperatures......maybe this is part of the reason TU national is not as involved in the watershed. They are busy out west with the native and endangered red bands and west slope and however many more isolated populations of endangered native species that still exist in their native home waters......I believe that Chris Wood stated a couple years ago that TU was going to focus more on native populations...so it would be left to the local chapters to fix the giant issues that face the Delaware fishery, not the Delaware river.....the river and the water supply right now are fine, people in NY city have the water they need now, and it seems as if they aren't going to give any of it up for some fisherman......
I can see the logic on both sides, but drinking will always supplant fishing....Good luck with the battle, I hope both sides can come to an agreement that makes all happy, but it ain't gonna' happen....
Here is TU's mission statement...
"To conserve, protect and restore North America's coldwater fisheries and their watersheds."
Is the Delaware river watershed considered a "coldwater" fishery or watershed? it seems as if it is some of the time, and some of the time it is a warm water fishery dependent on the man made dams to keep it cool. Granted the trout can survive the summer if there were no dams, but it is not a C&R fishery for many months because of the rise in water temperatures......maybe this is part of the reason TU national is not as involved in the watershed. They are busy out west with the native and endangered red bands and west slope and however many more isolated populations of endangered native species that still exist in their native home waters......I believe that Chris Wood stated a couple years ago that TU was going to focus more on native populations...so it would be left to the local chapters to fix the giant issues that face the Delaware fishery, not the Delaware river.....the river and the water supply right now are fine, people in NY city have the water they need now, and it seems as if they aren't going to give any of it up for some fisherman......
I can see the logic on both sides, but drinking will always supplant fishing....Good luck with the battle, I hope both sides can come to an agreement that makes all happy, but it ain't gonna' happen....
MACFLY
Too many streams too little time
Wait a second Joe. I have no doubt you care a great deal about the Delaware but you are complaining about what some other folks are not doing. Your fight isn't with Brian who basically funded his own job and the did his own leg work to get funding for the musconectong. Likewise if you are doing things behind the scenes that's great but why criticize others. This is a big part of the problem. This year has seen an anomaly on the system. It's rare to see the river in this condition most years at this point. The data pretty much indicates we have an anomaly. Is this something that should have been accounted for. sounds like Monday morning quarterbacking to me. If you all have better plans no one here is gonna stand in your way of making them a reality. I just see zero point in beating up on other folks that have made attempts to make thing better. Before ffmp I saw the same complaints. I used to sit at the Delaware River club in the 90s and listen to Al caucci go sideways about the current plan. So was that plan better or worse. Sorry it seems like all we can do is complain. Doesn't make a lot of sense.
Future Fanatic
Nirvana
TR
"You can observe a lot just by watching." Y. Berra
-------
Mac, You bet it's been going on for a long time.
The best solution is to revisit the 1954 decree of 1750 cfs by going to court.
A lot has changed in 61 years.
You need a lot of money and a lot of good minds to make the case.
They said it couldn't be done with NYS Home Rule and it went to court was appealed to this highest NYS court and the little guy won.
Phil Chase advocated to revisit the decree.
Ask Serio about Phil when you have a moment.
Tight lines.
Rusty Spinner
Active member
Ask the top dog, he answers 100% of his emails. Chris Wood (cwood@tu.org). Let us know his reply.
EDIT: Cabarle has the forum set up so that it spells out certain words if you use things like the letters "t" and "u". Chris' email is cwood, the "@" symbol, the the letter "t" and "u" and then ".org" and not Trout Unlimited.org."
JOE.T
Dry Flies Only
Hold on .
I was knocking TU as a group and mentioned the Musky and Brian for some reason took it personal.
That was not my intention.He should be commended on the job he's done.But TU has been pathetic when it comes to the Delaware issues.they spend money on Stocked fish and not wild fish was my point..Very simple
I also pointed out how Jim Serio has put in more time on flow issues than most people I know.
I have a problem with TU and FUDR as a whole..The way this has been handled over the years has not worked.
There is now a new Chief at FUDR lets see what he comes up with.A Business plan is needed for funding period.You need funding a war chest so to speak.
If you care so much about the river and my opinions than why don't you meet me and a small group of guys that have been trying to work with the DEC and FUDR, maybe you can help?
I'll PM you some dates when we're all getting together again...That goes for anyone else.
We've been trying to get an Aquatic Biologist and a team of college students to do the much needed research on the WB,EB,UDR and even the Neversink.
How can any group negotiate for better flows without knowing the actual health of the fishery? i.e trout and insect populations,water quality, silt issues, etc,etc.
It's a start.
JOE.T
Dry Flies Only
How's that feel...
You need med's and a good therapist.
Rusty Spinner
Active member
The only thing I took as "personal" wasn't really personal, it was more correcting your mistakes. TU didn't spend money from membership dues in the Musconetcong watershed, I raised and spent that money on their behalf. That's how TU conservation staff works. And you keep saying "stocked fish" having zero clue that the Musky has both native, wild brook trout as well as wild brown trout. I did all my work for the benefit of the brookies and the wild browns and state stocked trout all got a free ride. At least half the tributaries of the Musky have documented wild brookies in them. I know because I was often the one documenting their populations. At least one trib has known Heritage brook trout, a special fish when you consider that we've been stocking non-native brook trout strains for over 100 years. Some tribs are real gems, and protecting and restoring them is key to continuing to have native, wild brook trout in that river system. Sure, the average angler thinks of the Musky as a primarily stocked fishery, but I know otherwise and I know where those brookies are in both the tribs and mainstem. And we have some really nice wild browns that sometimes reach 20" or more in the lower river. That's not a bad fish even for the upper D.
JOE.T
Dry Flies Only
I know the Musky its a hatchery! with a few small wild trout.If it's so great why bother coming to the D ?
Give me a break.Fuck the Musky, TU needs to step up and HELP save the best wild trout fishery East of the Rockies
Hello anyone home at TU?
Rusty Spinner
Active member
Those are some of the problems you face in any volunteer based organization. TU is no different in that regard than any other volunteer orgs with chapters. Try being on staff and dealing with idiots like whichever chapter president you are referring to
And now I run into the same thing as state council conservation chair now that I am back in the volunteer ranks. But I know I can still make difference, so I work through the BS that sometimes comes with the territory.
lightenup
A fan of Boobery
Those are some of the problems you face in any volunteer based organization. TU is no different in that regard than any other volunteer orgs with chapters. Try being on staff and dealing with idiots like whichever chapter president you are referring to
I won't name him publicly......that would be wrong, but I will PM you.....he is a very nice guy, but I was taken aback a bit by the lack of response or any attempt to take any action at all......especially when I was organizing the thing......
Rusty Spinner
Active member
Not me, I no longer work there. I put up Chris' email. Send him an email and I can promise you're going to get your answer. Don't know if you'll like it, but take the bull by the horns and email the man instead of complaining to nobody here. I can assure you that he doesn't troll NEFF.
trico mike
make mine wild
With the explosion of wild and native fish in the musky I will be starting a petition to have nj end its stocking of this river. There is no reason these fish should have to compete with hatchery mutants. I would expect all the nj tu chapters to get on board with this as well as all other involved parties. I posed the question earlier about tu protecting true cold water fisheries in the lhv,any answers. Crickets
