Looks like another rough week ahead

[Big_Spinner]

Hi All,

Looks like warm temps and meager releases for the week ahead.

NYC is freaking out over the dry spring.

Highs in the 80's this week.

I do think there will be some relief on the first of June.

It is also possible if we get no rain that Montague Directed releases will kick back in again.

The problem this time of year is both power generation rivers have plenty of water to make power and they will most likely do so. This keeps the rivermaster from calling for Directed releases.

Jim

 

[TR]

Hi All,

Looks like warm temps and meager releases for the week ahead.

NYC is freaking out over the dry spring...

Jim

-----

We're all "freaking out" over the dry spring. In fact the monthly precip has been below the historical average since August 2014. See NYC DEP stats for the Catskills.

Jim, didn't you say that the reservoirs would spill this month?

Yup.

TR

=====================================
Hey, really...It's only a FLY FISHING site.

 

[NJFred]

Hi All,

Looks like warm temps and meager releases for the week ahead.

NYC is freaking out over the dry spring.

Highs in the 80's this week.

I do think there will be some relief on the first of June.

It is also possible if we get no rain that Montague Directed releases will kick back in again.

The problem this time of year is both power generation rivers have plenty of water to make power and they will most likely do so. This keeps the rivermaster from calling for Directed releases.

Jim

Sure does look tough. Even with the cooler temps over the last several days, low water is showing why it's a BIG part of the problem. Sun beating down on rocks and water temps rising 10 degrees over the day to hit ambient highs. Let's hope for clouds and some T-storms to at least put some water in the system.

 

[TR]

Sure does look tough. Even with the cooler temps over the last several days, low water is showing why it's a BIG part of the problem.

{Well, duh.} Sun beating down on rocks and water temps rising 10 degrees over the day to hit ambient highs. {Right on... Right on} Let's hope for clouds and some T-storms to at least put some water in the system.

-----------

You know, another guide said to me the other day, that the better tailwater fly fishing on the Main Stem from Hancock to Damascus (read: consistent flows and water temps below 68} has been in the fall - not spring - when all the freestones are low and bony but the Main Stem gets the water releases since the 1750cfs isn't being it met and I would agree. In addition, the nights are then in the 40's / 50's.

In 2014, the Main Stem fished superb from mid September through early November. Less crowds too.

Hatches of Iso's, BWO's, sullphurs and caddis.

Fred, now git out there and FISH TODAY before the water gits too warm by Tuesday and be sure to have some Snowshoe Rusty Spinners with you at dusk.

"I'm just sitting here waiting for the reservoirs to spill"* [ASCAP]

Sing to the tune of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da69-pu_pqc

 

[NJFred]

TR.. the river fishes in the fall? Complete rumor and innuendo.

 

[Big_Spinner]

Hi All,

Tony, the month is not over. A few thunderstorms and we will still get spill. This does illustrate part of the reason for NYC angst. The weather is not predictable out more than a week or so. It is hard to predict that the month of May has received only about an inch or rain instead of the average or about 3 inches. You should rail on mother nature for being so far below the mean and median!!

Be careful what you wish for: Montague releases early in the season will most likely kill the fall fishing as the clear, cold water will be used up and we get the discolored sludge starting in August through October. Just shows there is not enough quality water to do everything.

Jim

 

[NJFred]

Well... Fishing the Main is done again, Lordville north of 70 deg (actual not measured). Without additional releases and/or precip the lower West is finished as well. High temps will push north of 85 deg, over the next five days. We are potentially heading into a very bad situation with the low water. I'm not talking about the ability to fish but the fish themselves... We could be looking at water temps easily in excess of 75 in the Upper Main and even perhaps the lower West... And with the system at 95% + capacity.

Montague flow is low but they've been pulsing water from lower resources to meet the 1750 CFS. Despite my views on using scare water for Montague targets... I hope we get a bit of release this time around.

Went to the FUDR site....Nothing. Why isn't FUDR ringing the alarm bell? I don't get it.

We clearly need thermal directed releases to protect the fishery. And I'm just talking about the lower West and upper Main. Current FFMP is insufficient and downright dangerous.

 

[tomfly]

Well... Fishing the Main is done again, Lordville north of 70 deg (actual not measured). Without additional releases and/or precip the lower West is finished as well. High temps will push north of 85 deg, over the next five days. We are potentially heading into a very bad situation with the low water. I'm not talking about the ability to fish but the fish themselves... We could be looking at water temps easily in excess of 75 in the Upper Main and even perhaps the lower West... And with the system at 95% + capacity.

Montague flow is low but they've been pulsing water from lower resources to meet the 1750 CFS. Despite my views on using scare water for Montague targets... I hope we get a bit of release this time around.

Went to the FUDR site....Nothing. Why isn't FUDR ringing the alarm bell? I don't get it.

We clearly need thermal directed releases to protect the fishery. And I'm just talking about the lower West and upper Main. Current FFMP is insufficient and downright dangerous.

The National Weather service outlook for the North East Summer predicts below average temperatures .

 

[NJFred]

The National Weather service outlook for the North East Summer predicts below average temperatures .

We can only hope. But... The problem is not just ambients. It's the very low water. Exposed rock acting as a heat sink and then the rocks heat the water around them. Certainly it's been a dry spring, but my beef is the release now from Cannonsville is at 240CFS and its nearly full. Another 300CFS would protect the Lower West and even the very upper Main.

Note the the FFMP is not meeting it's own stated objective for the entire WBD.

"Excellent year-round cold water aquatic habitat protection. Summer water temperatures are routinely 68oF or less and only very rarely exceed a daily maximum of 75oF. Excellent protection level applies to the West Branch Delaware River from Cannonsville Reservoir to the junction with the East Branch Delaware River, the East Branch Delaware River from Pepacton Reservoir to the hamlet of East Branch, N.Y., and Neversink River from Neversink Reservoir to Bridgeville, N.Y.

Certainly 5 days already this year over the 68 degree target. The temps hit 75 dumping into the upper Main two days in a row. I would bet, without additional releases, we will do it all again this week.

We can argue whether or not the FFMP is better than other plans of the past. It's certainly better than what we would have had should no one fought for the fishery. However what's clear is that it's a failure and it's failing to meet it's own set objectives. With nearly full reservoirs at that. It needs to be changed. A thermal directed release would go a long way!

 

[TR]

Hi All,

Tony, the month is not over. A few thunderstorms and we will still get spill. This does illustrate part of the reason for NYC angst. The weather is not predictable out more than a week or so. It is hard to predict that the month of May has received only about an inch or rain instead of the average or about 3 inches. You should rail on mother nature for being so far below the mean and median!!

Jim. Today is the 25th. The month is almost over.

Look, I understand that we are below the historical precip for the month of May.

We have also been below the historical precip for each month back to August of 2014.

The data is on NYC DEP's site.

I am voicing my opinion about the reservoirs being almost full in May and receiving what some think is an improvement from year's past.

Hell, don't take my word for it just compare the 50 year median / mean via USGS for almost every station on the WB, EB and Main Stem.

I "rail" because I think many anglers got a snow job from all the hocus pocus and black magic of FFMP, Rev 7 and OST and Oasis and all the other bile that jams up cyberspace.

You think it's an improvement for May.

I do not.

Ask a few businesses that turned away clients.

After guiding for 21 years, I don't believe I ever heard of outfitters and resorts in Hancock that had to do that.

As far as me, I don't have people working for me, own no tackle shop or restaurant with accomodations.

My overhead is low.

And, like today, when the water north of Callicoon hits 68 by say - 3:00pm - I advise my customers to fish for smallmouth from Cally to Damascus to Skinners to Narrowsburg to TMR to Zane.

We floated today and had a ball.

Report on my site in a few hours after I finished an ice cold Corona.

---

Be careful what you wish for: Montague releases early in the season will most likely kill the fall fishing as the clear, cold water will be used up and we get the discolored sludge starting in August through October. Just shows there is not enough quality water to do everything.

Jim

No.

That's total bullshit.

It might, no - it will be mud, or heavily stained, from say - Deposit to Hancock to Buck the lower the res goes.

But, believe me, when I say the fly fishing from Long Eddy to Damascus - 20 miles - was outstanding last fall.

The silt from Cannonsville was diluted by the time it reached Long Eddy and eventhough the water was not gin clear, it had visibility to 5 feet but more important was that there was flow and, as I mentioned, the water was ranging from 54 to 68 from mid September through early November.

The lower you went on the Main Stem, the better the water looked without sacrificing cold water temps.

By the way, I wasn't the only guide that worked that stretch last year.

Tight lines,
TR

 

[tomfly]

`

We can only hope. But... The problem is not just ambients. It's the very low water. Exposed rock acting as a heat sink and then the rocks heat the water around them. Certainly it's been a dry spring, but my beef is the release now from Cannonsville is at 240CFS and its nearly full. Another 300CFS would protect the Lower West and even the very upper Main.

Note the the FFMP is not meeting it's own stated objective for the entire WBD.

"Excellent year-round cold water aquatic habitat protection. Summer water temperatures are routinely 68oF or less and only very rarely exceed a daily maximum of 75oF. Excellent protection level applies to the West Branch Delaware River from Cannonsville Reservoir to the junction with the East Branch Delaware River, the East Branch Delaware River from Pepacton Reservoir to the hamlet of East Branch, N.Y., and Neversink River from Neversink Reservoir to Bridgeville, N.Y.

Certainly 5 days already this year over the 68 degree target. The temps hit 75 dumping into the upper Main two days in a row. I would bet, without additional releases, we will do it all again this week.

We can argue whether or not the FFMP is better than other plans of the past. It's certainly better than what we would have had should no one fought for the fishery. However what's clear is that it's a failure and it's failing to meet it's own set objectives. With nearly full reservoirs at that. It needs to be changed. A thermal directed release would go a long way!

I agree, I just think there is a fear due to the lack of rain and they want to conserve the supply and only do a release if it is absolutely necessary . All the rain is going south of us and to the north. The best we can hope for is a break in this weather pattern.

 

[WBDluver]

Silt is not good for fish either

 

[Future Fanatic]

Jim, didn't you say that the reservoirs would spill this month?

Yup.

TR

Even the best of us can make mistakes...

Trust me, reservoirs will be spilling this spring

Tight lines,
TR

 

[TR]

Well... Fishing the Main is done again, Lordville north of 70 deg (actual not measured). Without additional releases and/or precip the lower West is finished as well. High temps will push north of 85 deg, over the next five days. We are potentially heading into a very bad situation with the low water. I'm not talking about the ability to fish but the fish themselves... We could be looking at water temps easily in excess of 75 in the Upper Main and even perhaps the lower West... And with the system at 95% + capacity.

Montague flow is low but they've been pulsing water from lower resources to meet the 1750 CFS. Despite my views on using scare water for Montague targets... I hope we get a bit of release this time around.

Went to the FUDR site....Nothing. Why isn't FUDR ringing the alarm bell? I don't get it.

We clearly need thermal directed releases to protect the fishery. And I'm just talking about the lower West and upper Main. Current FFMP is insufficient and downright dangerous.

----------

Fred,

It's a shitty plan.

If folks on this board at this point don't realize that by now - May 25th - shame on them.

What newbies should do is ask a few guides that have been working the river for over 15 years if the conditions (READ: bottom released coldwater flows) were better this May than in seasons past and hear what they have to say.

Granted it was dry and warm, but there have other May's where it was dry and warm and they released more water. Not anymore under this regime.

This isn't about whether Serio is a great guy that lent somebody a rod or that he took my poodle to Scranton for a vaccine when I had a flat.

It's about whether this plan works for the coldwater fishery or whether it has flaws and is worse than previous versions.

All you need to do is talk to a few guides and outfitters.

The problem is FUDR embraced the Serio/ Kolesar plan as did RFAC and DRBC - and now they all have to live with it.

The smallmouth bass fishing on the river has been superb.

Tight lines,
TR

 

[trico mike]

I hear everybody complaining about the current plan and calling for more water. I agree to some extent but I don't hear anybody proposing plans. All you guys do is cry for more water but I haven't seen your scientific data or any proposals on how to do this. You can't just say we need more water when the main concern is supplying water for millions of people. So Tr and others lets hear your ideas on how to get more water. It's not as easy as just opening a spicket.

 

[mudbug201]

----------

This isn't about whether Serio is a great guy that lent somebody a rod or that he took my poodle to Scranton for a vaccine when I had a flat.

TR

I think a lot of us weighed in on behalf of Jim's character because, consistently, for the last few weeks, you have been making it about him, with a series of ad hominem attacks.

 

[Future Fanatic]

I think a lot of us weighed in on behalf of Jim's character because, consistently, for the last few years, you have been making it about him, with a series of ad hominem attacks.

Fixed it...

 

[golden beetle]

I hear everybody complaining about the current plan and calling for more water. I agree to some extent but I don't hear anybody proposing plans. All you guys do is cry for more water but I haven't seen your scientific data or any proposals on how to do this. You can't just say we need more water when the main concern is supplying water for millions of people. So Tr and others lets hear your ideas on how to get more water. It's not as easy as just opening a spicket.

I have read suggestions to increase the capacity of the current reservoir system, by raising the dams.

I have read suggestions to dam up parts of NJ and PA to divert water needed for the Montague target.

I have suggested desalination.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

I hear everybody complaining about the current plan and calling for more water. I agree to some extent but I don't hear anybody proposing plans. All you guys do is cry for more water but I haven't seen your scientific data or any proposals on how to do this. You can't just say we need more water when the main concern is supplying water for millions of people. So Tr and others lets hear your ideas on how to get more water. It's not as easy as just opening a spicket.

It's far easier to sit on the sidelines and attack the ones that dive in to do the work. Always has been, always will be. The ones that roll up their sleeves to get things done deserve our praise, not our criticism. Even if we don't agree 100% with their plans. To me, it's just like not voting and then complaining about the politicians.

 

[WBDluver]

I have read suggestions to increase the capacity of the current reservoir system, by raising the dams.

I have read suggestions to dam up parts of NJ and PA to divert water needed for the Montague target.

I have suggested desalination.

Since the Montague gauge is located on the NJ side of the Milford bridge, Just where would you put a damn in NJ to help? there is only about 8 miles of NJ up river from there before you hit Port Jervis NY. Ya Boob

 

[TR]

I think a lot of us weighed in on behalf of Jim's character because, consistently, for the last few weeks, you have been making it about him, with a series of ad hominem attacks.

----

You're missing the point.

I understand that Serio undertook this project. Terrific.

Thank you for your time and efforts Jim.

Regardless whether you were, or have been compensated, as others on this board have proffered, for your time on FFMP, Oasis, etc. is really besides the point.

If he was - fine. Anyone who puts in a days work should be paid for their efforts.

If it was strictly volunteer work, well, that's up to him to decide.

I could care less what his terms were.

However, Serio actually takes credit for his brokering of this current plan that the West Branch and Upper Main Stem is actually better off now {READ: May of 2015} than in year's past in May as opposed to owning up that it is now worse than before.

As I said, talk to a few guides that have worked this river for more than 15 years and ask them the simple two part question:

Q:
This spring, have the coldwater tailwater releases on the West Branch and Main Stem Upper Delaware River been an improvement, or not, from previous years? If it is better, how so?

Cut out the personality bullshit and just ask that simple question.

Tight lines,
TR

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Cut out the personality bullshit and just ask that simple question.

Tight lines,
TR

Be careful because someone here just might ask you what specifically you have done other than to criticize what others have done..............

 

[TheHeron]

----

You're missing the point.

I understand that Serio undertook this project. Terrific.

Thank you for your time and efforts Jim.

Regardless whether you were, or have been compensated, as others on this board have proffered, for your time on FFMP, Oasis, etc. is really besides the point.

If he was - fine. Anyone who puts in a days work should be paid for their efforts.

If it was strictly volunteer work, well, that's up to him to decide.

I could care less what his terms were.

However, Serio actually takes credit for his brokering of this current plan that the West Branch and Upper Main Stem is actually better off now {READ: May of 2015} than in year's past in May as opposed to owning up that it is now worse than before.

As I said, talk to a few guides that have worked this river for more than 15 years and ask them the simple two part question:

Q:
This spring, have the coldwater tailwater releases on the West Branch and Main Stem Upper Delaware River been an improvement, or not, from previous years? If it is better, how so?

Cut out the personality bullshit and just ask that simple question.

Tight lines,
TR

TR,

You are the one missing the point, not to mention (yes to mention) you are a hypocrite.....personality bullshit? You have personalized this issue with attacks on Jim. What have you done or did you do to assist? And what makes you so high and mighty that you think you are in a position to pass judgment?

Mel

 

[lightenup]

I guess "don't start none, won't be none" applies here.......

 

[babyblue]

Went to the friends of the Upper Delaware River site....Nothing. Why isn't friends of the Upper Delaware River ringing the alarm bell? I don't get it.

Fred, in my opinion, FUDR has never been a player in release study or negotiation. They are like TU, give us your money and shut up. It looks like, as I heard this weekend at an evening discussion after fishing, not Jim, FUDR is likely trying to control land access. I wonder why they would want to do that?

 

[JOE.T]

----------

Fred,

It's a shitty plan.

If folks on this board at this point don't realize that by now - May 25th - shame on them.

What newbies should do is ask a few guides that have been working the river for over 15 years if the conditions (READ: bottom released coldwater flows) were better this May than in seasons past and hear what they have to say.

Granted it was dry and warm, but there have other May's where it was dry and warm and they released more water. Not anymore under this regime.

This isn't about whether Serio is a great guy that lent somebody a rod or that he took my poodle to Scranton for a vaccine when I had a flat.

It's about whether this plan works for the coldwater fishery or whether it has flaws and is worse than previous versions.

All you need to do is talk to a few guides and outfitters.

The problem is FUDR embraced the Serio/ Kolesar plan as did RFAC and DRBC - and now they all have to live with it.

The smallmouth bass fishing on the river has been superb.

Tight lines,
TR

Tony

I just can't agree with you more.

I know most of the guides up there.If you where to get at least a dozen of them together they would all tell you that at some point they belonged to a group to help with the flow issues.

The sad thing is if you asked them today most of them do not belong to any group!

The reason is because there is no Business plan in place by any group.

I was around when it was the Delaware River Coalition, than I joined the DRF and even became a board memeber of the DRF with Jim Serio, and from there I joined the FUDR.

At this point like many of the guides I have no allegiance to any group.Until I see a viable Business plan in place that the guides buy into I wont bother anymore.

Someone or some group needs to put a plan together with goals and how the goals will be achieved.

No group has ever done that yet (SAD).Can you actually believe that none of the groups have ever done any "field research" such as fish population and insect counts, water quality and Trout Movement studies.(PATHETIC)

The only research ever done was by Norm Mcbride DEC region 4 many many years ago, and the Sheppard study even before that.

Why in the world after all of these years would all of these groups including TU not have done there own research to look at the quality and health of the fishery ?

Everything is a model this and model that.

TU BTW is pathetic, they spend a fortune and a lot of time on stocked rivers in NJ, and brookie streams in Vermont, but they're nowhere to be found regarding the best wild trout fishery east of the Rockies.

Tony Ritter has been involved longer than 99% of you guys on this site and has put plenty of his own time in..My question is to some of you besides posting something what have you done?

Joe.t

 

[golden beetle]

Since the Montague gauge is located on the NJ side of the Milford bridge, Just where would you put a damn in NJ to help? there is only about 8 miles of NJ up river from there before you hit Port Jervis NY. Ya Boob

Yes yes.

Good point.

 

[golden beetle]

Tony

I just can't agree with you more.

I know most of the guides up there.If you where to get at least a dozen of them together they would all tell you that at some point they belonged to a group to help with the flow issues.

The sad thing is if you asked them today most of them do not belong to any group!

The reason is because there is no Business plan in place by any group.

I was around when it was the Delaware River Coalition, than I joined the DRF and even became a board memeber of the DRF with Jim Serio, and from there I joined the FUDR.

At this point like many of the guides I have no allegiance to any group.Until I see a viable Business plan in place that the guides buy into I wont bother anymore.

Someone or some group needs to put a plan together with goals and how the goals will be achieved.

No group has ever done that yet (SAD).Can you actually believe that none of the groups have ever done any "field research" such as fish population and insect counts, water quality and Trout Movement studies.(PATHETIC)

The only research ever done was by Norm Mcbride DEC region 4 many many years ago, and the Sheppard study even before that.

Why in the world after all of these years would all of these groups including TU not have done there own research to look at the quality and health of the fishery ?

Everything is a model this and model that.

TU BTW is pathetic, they spend a fortune and a lot of time on stocked rivers in NJ, and brookie streams in Vermont, but they're nowhere to be found regarding the best wild trout fishery east of the Rockies.

Tony Ritter has been involved longer than 99% of you guys on this site and has put plenty of his own time in..My question is to some of you besides posting something what have you done?

Joe.t

Joe, I'm not gonna edit one word out of your post.

But when you ask "what have you done," to help...

I started a major online publication, GB Mag.

What have you done?

 

[Big_Spinner]

Hi Tony,

Let me do the math for you:

31 - 25 = 6 days left in May

You are correct, we are almost to the end of the month!!!

Here is the question you posed:

Q: This spring, have the coldwater tailwater releases on the West Branch and Main Stem Upper Delaware River been an improvement, or not, from previous years? If it is better, how so?

Here is the answer: It really depends on your point of reference.

Is it better than last year under FFMP and ample precipitation, NO.

Is it better than a dry year under either Rev 1 (45 cfs release from Cannonsville until June 15th) or better than Rev 7 (60 cfs release with a 225 target at Hale Eddy)

So is FFMP/OST better in a dry year in May, I would say yes!!! Absolutely YES!! Is it enough, NO.

Is it better than a wet May (400 cfs Cannonville release (see last year); NO, but FFMP in a wet year is also better than previous versions in wet years.

The biggest benefit of FFMP is that in wet or normal years we all share the wealth, this was never the case in previous versions. If it was a wet year, the reservoirs wasted water by spilling, FFMP uses that spill and converts it to beneficial release.

We have been through this before. I am still waiting for you to offer a better solution. Demanding more water is not a solution.

One possible topic of conversation: Would you be okay with reducing the Montague Target at times and using that saved water in May to boost the releases?

Would you be willing to reduce the summer 500 cfs release under FFMP to say 450 and use that saved water to boost May releases?

You could probably get the decree parties to agree on the second option before the first.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Hope this helps,

Jim

 

[NJFred]

I hear everybody complaining about the current plan and calling for more water. I agree to some extent but I don't hear anybody proposing plans. All you guys do is cry for more water but I haven't seen your scientific data or any proposals on how to do this. You can't just say we need more water when the main concern is supplying water for millions of people. So Tr and others lets hear your ideas on how to get more water. It's not as easy as just opening a spicket.

Dude... read some of my posts... Thermal conditions directed release to protect exactly what we are experience now. If you want more of a explanation let me know.