golden beetle
Active member
Ignoramus and troll, and more importantly, GB Mag's official hunting correspondent.
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Lets do some math on river flow
- Thread starter WBDluver
- Start date
Ignoramus and troll, and more importantly, GB Mag's official hunting correspondent.
He's on Instagram...
#thedeeraresafe
#nodeerwereharmed
NJFred
Trout Hunter
Frankly, I think you are missing the point. Many here are not concerned about whether they can wet a line today, tomorrow on the next day. We are concerned about the long term health of the fishery. BTW... if you are "tired of hearing about it" stop looking at these threads and certainly refrain from wasting your time replying to them.
golden beetle
Active member
Fred, you said it.
But there's a need for a politically able advocate who doesnt get laughed at and dismissed, as a click troll (me) or otherwise a loon (everyone it seems who advocates for the river).
Emoussa could easily be brought on board I think by a skilled advocate, rather than turned away.
Just my opinion.
trico mike
make mine wild
I just read a good article on trout and lethal temps to them. For rainbows and browns lethal temps need to be 77 degrees sustained for a period of 24-48 hours. As of now I have not seen this happen. Yes the temps rise to unhealhy levels in thes heat waves but the lethal temps even down in calicoon are not sustained for more then 10-12 hours. I'm not arguing about water. We all agree that more is needed, just pointing out that the trout army going belly up all over the system. Like I said they will survive. This situation may not be good for the guys that make a living exploiting the system I.e guides but oh well that's the chance you take when you depend on natural resources to make a living.
NJFred
Trout Hunter
Hopefully the article pointed out the untoward affects temps even 73 degrees can have the the fish. Mike the concern isn't just about the threat of thermally driven fish kills it's about the overall health of the fishery. And it's not all about temps. River bottom coverage for insect life is another concern over extended low flow periods. There are other issues and concerns as well.
And once again... I'm not a guide. Many here are not who advocate for the fishery. Maybe you haven't fished the Delaware that long and don't understand what it would be like without people who do call attention to issues in flow plans and fight to make it a better fishery. I'll say it again... without many fighting long and hard over the years the Delaware would be a put and take stockie fishery.
TR
"You can observe a lot just by watching." Y. Berra
-----------
Fred, the Main Stem of the Upper Delaware River was never, nor would it ever had been by NYS DEC or PA FBC "a put and take stockie fishery" if for the efforts of advocacy groups which date back all the way to the likes of gentlemen like Phil Chase in the 1970's.
What it would have been is what is was prior to the construction of Cannonsville Reservoir [1965] and Pepacton Reservoir [1954] - a warmwater fishery from its confluence at Hancock, New York and south - as was the West Branch from Deposit to Hancock.
All of the gamefish in the Main Stem were introduced either in the river or its tributaries in the 1880's.
They are the rainbow trout [Calfiornia / McCloud River strain], the brown trout [Euro], the walleye [Great Lakes] and the smallmouth bass [Ohio River].
Native species to this river were: Eels, fallfish, striped bass and American Shad.
Neither state {Pennsylvania or New York} would have ever stocked the Main Stem during the mid 1900's due to its size and limited accessibility.
Futhermore, both states would have and continue to do stock others Catskill streams, which do have better public accessibility, such as the Beaverkill, Willowemoc, East Branch, Neversink and various tributaries {Callicoon Creek, Basket, Equinunk, Pea, Shehawkin, Calkins, etc} where trout do eventually make their way into the Main Stem during high water conditions.
That the wild rainbows were able to exist under poor to mediocre conditions for 70 years prior to the NYC reservoirs being built is testament to their genetic strength and why you and I along with most people on this board are passionate about conserving this resource and why I am frustrated and angry about the current state of the Main Stem Upper Delaware River that we have all witnessed this past May 2015.
I wish the parties that control this situation would begin to anticipate and not just react.
There is a difference.
Tony Ritter
flyI4
Fishizzle, I use worms but I'm looking to upgrade!
Tony ,
a divide u point out is there is a difference between supporting the main stem and supporting the tailwaters. The mainstem arguably benefited from the yo yo flows period because it did not allow for long standing periods of low , warm flows on the river and would provide relief for most of the summer- the months that the main suffers from both thermal issues and low flows. The west branch however relies soley on the dam . low winter flows and all year long minimum flows matter up there because there is very little natural flow. The main however has plenty of water to hold fish over during the winter and non-fishing months to allow for holdover pools, spawning,ect. The trout below buckingham have always been left to survive on their own and always will be. Its the fish from buck up that get the protection and thats how I expect it to be.Do I like it no- but its a reasonable position i adopt for purposes of objectivity.
a divide u point out is there is a difference between supporting the main stem and supporting the tailwaters. The mainstem arguably benefited from the yo yo flows period because it did not allow for long standing periods of low , warm flows on the river and would provide relief for most of the summer- the months that the main suffers from both thermal issues and low flows. The west branch however relies soley on the dam . low winter flows and all year long minimum flows matter up there because there is very little natural flow. The main however has plenty of water to hold fish over during the winter and non-fishing months to allow for holdover pools, spawning,ect. The trout below buckingham have always been left to survive on their own and always will be. Its the fish from buck up that get the protection and thats how I expect it to be.Do I like it no- but its a reasonable position i adopt for purposes of objectivity.
tomfly
The only thing left should be foot prints.
Fred I think you data on thermal pollution ( low flow bottom coverage) and insect mortality is incorrect. Mayflies, Caddis flies and Stoneflies all have the same thermal resistance and can handle water temperatures well into the upper 80s with conditions of optimal water quality ( low chemical pollution ). Factors that can change the DO concentration in O2 at a given temperature are always chemical based. Industrial contaminants and fertilizers from farming golf courses and homeowners are all contributing factors on how much DO the water can absorb at any given temperature.
Where mayflies, caddis flies and stoneflies start to get into trouble is in extremely cold temperatures, when the entire water column is just above freezing, when there is no thermal refuge in the stream. Studies have shown that aquatic insects gill activity at those temperatures become motionless and mortality ensues with in 12 hours.
With aquatic invertebrates the amount of dissolved chemical pollution in the water is more of a contributing factor to mortality then is temperature or stream flow.
NJFred
Trout Hunter
Mike some good points here. My comment on river bottom coverage is that the less river there is vs dry stream bed, certainly over time, the less bugs there will be. They do live in water. And now you are bringing up the water quality. Many of us who fish the system on a regular basis for years have become more and more concerned about this as well. There is a lot more sediment and algae around than there used to be. Phosphorous is a recognized issue in Cannonsville. Water quality is a concern to both the fishery and to NYC. Perhaps an area of common interest for us to work more together?
NJFred
Trout Hunter
Tony great points as always. Yes the McCloud rainbow strain appears to be thankfully hardy (too bad they typically don't get any bigger than about 22" to 24"). Certianly agree on the history you present. I will say if the fishery goes to hell... it will become put and take. One difference prior to the damns and now is the incredible pressure the system has from fisherman.
One point I do want to make... I'm not only concerned about the upper mainstem but I'm concerned about the lower west as well (not to mention the the mid to upper rivers of the other branches etc.). Temps are now routinely hitting over 70 on the Lower West Branch. From my perspective it's key to the fishery to have the lower west below 68 and then a cool temperature plume down into the upper main. This way fish has some thermal sanctuary. As we all know based on the telemetry study, they will and do move around quite a bit. Having a place to go when the lower main heats up is critical in my mind and knowing which way to head as they travel upstream for cooler water at junction into the cooler flow of the WBD is important.
Now as Joe T. points out, we have very little scientific data on the river so my thinking is only a theory. We need FUDR and Trout Unlimited to fund some additional studies to assess, monitor and understand the health of the fishery.
JOE.T
Dry Flies Only
tomfly
The only thing left should be foot prints.
I understand your point. What you are describing is a Dam problem. The system before the dams were constructed had it's own way of maintaining equilibrium. One of the factors that the dams contribute to is flood control. Now without the seasonal flooding to wash the silt out of the system you have the sediment problem. Also without the free flow of the system the riparian flood zone is now not as prolific as it once was. Flood control has found to be the leading cause of the demise of the Tohma that needs the seasonal flood plane to mature and hatch. The Tohma once thrived in the Catskills and in now on the Endangered species list.
JOE.T
Dry Flies Only
Fred
You forgot about the church of the little green men, they could make things happen.
JOE.T
Dry Flies Only
I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.
brachycentrus
Just finished a River Runs Through it!
Dont pay attention to my study !!!
JOE.T
Dry Flies Only
It's the 90/10 rule as with life.
90% either don't get it, say what the fuck happened or just don't care
Than there is the 10%.. well you know the rest.
The green guys are rockin.
Most guys wouldn't believe your study if you smacked em in the head with scientific facts.You can tell em the sky is blue but they'll still tell you it's purple.
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