Fishing Report Catskills

[JOE.T]

The Lower East Branch is to warm to fish.Even Harvard is getting up to the 67-70 range by days end.

The Main Stem in my opinion has gotten to warm, maybe in the morning in the upper main Hancock to Stockport.

The West Branch is cool from top to bottom.The problem is the Lack of Bugs.Even the No kill and Stillesvile has very very sporadic Sulphur hatches.

Something is wrong up there.I have never seen a summer with no Sulphur's coming off daily in good numbers in the Upper WB.

Fishing can be great if you know where and when to go in the Catskills.The where and when is for everyone to figure out if they have not already.


Have Fun.

 

[JeffK]

East to West it seems anecdotal evidence is that hatches aren't what they used to be. Locally the Muskie and upper South Branch had great sulphurs from esrly or mid May on and then the Pequest sulphurs hit full stride right after Memorial Day. So it was more than a month of guaranteed sulphur action at dusk. This year I have hit it a few times, but most days it is off. Younger guys think it is fine because there is a day when the action is good. But sulphurs used to be every night for 4 to 6 weeks reliable, not I had a couple of good days.

Didn't see much of Hendricksons and Cahills have been hit or miss on the Brodhead. Spent a couple of evenings on the Neversink where nothing really happened. Two nights isn't a good sample, but the locals claimed to only have a good night or two.

Lots of arguments about the causes, but hatches seem to be off over a wide area in both growing and rural or protected areas.

 

[Trout Nazi]

Gotta wonder how much of this is from the Knotweed that is now everywhere in the Northeast. Chokes everything off of the banks, then when it goes dormant in the fall, it just leaves a mud bank that gets eroded in the winter, slowly making the river wider, shallower, silting things up. Now add didymo as a compounding factor.

 

[cms829]

Fished the west branch last Friday. Nice temps, partly to mostly cloudy. Good flow. Had high expectations and saw 1...exactly 1 sulphur. Maybe a handful of tiny blue olives. ZERO surface activity. I saw not a single rise from Stilesville down to the no kill section. Got tired of blind casting dries so I nymphed some of the faster water and had to clean my flies off every cast if I wanted the flies in the zone. I had one good fish on for a short while before I had to get back on the road.

Fished the B-Kill the weekend prior for a short while. Temps were OK. Saw no surface activity either. Got one small brown on an 18 sexy walts jig.

 

[FlyBri]

I fished the WB on Saturday. We did a short drift from Stilesville to Barking Dog. We got a few on ISO's to start and then had sulfurs for a few hours in the afternoon. Nothing like last year but we had some targets. Saw more fishermen than fish but it was a good day.

 

[flyI4]

I fished the WB on Saturday. We did a short drift from Stilesville to Barking Dog. We got a few on ISO's to start and then had sulfurs for a few hours in the afternoon. Nothing like last year but we had some targets. Saw more fishermen than fish but it was a good day.

Hatches have been light to mediocre at best this year for every hatch this year there is no denying that. I have fished up there every weekend aside from 2 since April 1st and have not hit a single blanket hatch all year for any insect. One positive I'll mention is this is the first season in 5+ seasons where I have seen the small olives coming back in decent numbers. They have been entirely absent which is a shame because they often are what get the fish garbage feeding in the middle of the day to get some fish to play with before the evening action gets going. This past weekend, I had good fishing but the no kill is shot. The pressure up there has gotten so bad that the fish simply don't get going on top at this point in the season in most areas due to the fact they have been hooked 10s if not hundreds of times by now. The barking dog access point has people putting in late and floating the no kill at all times of the day- the fish never get a break and the fishing has suffered- particularly with the sulpher hatch. Same goes for stilesville- a million wade guys in farm pool and above beating the hell out of the far bank every day has those fish conditioned not to get going on top aside from the rare day when you get some clouds/rain and the sulphers come off.

Finding risers this time of year on the wb now requires finding nooks that get less pressure but are still in the cold water. AT 600-700 that gets you sulphers to about monument pool during the day. I found some big fish rising last weekend and most were on the off bank that you would not typically be fishing, or in other areas that just arent where you would typically be fishing. The fish are adjusting to the pressure and it needs to be in the front of your mind when thinking about where to fish the hatch.

And where the hell are the ISOS. Pretty absent this year and almost none on the main this year which hurts because those fish really rely on that bug down there. Ok enough negativity for one day.

 

[JOE.T]

Don't shoot the messenger.Things on the upper WB are far more worse than most people know.Fish Populations are way down.The size class 8-12 inches are almost non-existent.

The Dorothea's and Invaria's which was always the "staple hatch" in the summer is 80-90% of what it always has been.That is a fact.I've done my own Seine Testing, and between my Buddies and I we are on that river 7 days a week.In other words at any given time one of us is up there.Nobody can tell us any different.

It's all about water quality and a major change to that ecosystem.

There are opinions or should I say educated guesses by some of us that when they blew out the Cannonsville last fall a tremendous amount of sludge was released.

How do we know that the Sludge and possibly contamination within the water and sludge where not a contributing factor? Don't forget they where releasing from the "BOTTOM OF THE BARREL ". As they say Cream rises to the top, shit settles to the bottom.

There are cycles with Aquatic insects,what is happening now is no cycle.Something major changed the ecosystem to affect 2 Aquatic insects to that degree.

Where is FUDR on this?? Why are they not conducting their own studies by hiring an independent Biologist to confirm what some of us are saying or thinking.

Maybe just maybe than we can find out what really happened.

Than the Multi Million Dollar question is ---How can you fix whatever issue it may be?

JOE.T

 

[Pete]

OFF TOPIC:
Joe - I have no idea why that post went into a moderation queue. It usually happens, as an anti-spam measure, when a new member puts a link in his first post.

Most likely a glitch that only DC can fix.

 

[Trout Nazi]

Don't shoot the messenger.Things on the upper WB are far more worse than most people know.Fish Populations are way down.The size class 8-12 inches are almost non-existent.

The Dorothea's and Invaria's which was always the "staple hatch" in the summer is 80-90% of what it always has been.That is a fact.I've done my own Seine Testing, and between my Buddies and I we are on that river 7 days a week.In other words at any given time one of us is up there.Nobody can tell us any different.

It's all about water quality and a major change to that ecosystem.

There are opinions or should I say educated guesses by some of us that when they blew out the Cannonsville last fall a tremendous amount of sludge was released.

How do we know that the Sludge and possibly contamination within the water and sludge where not a contributing factor? Don't forget they where releasing from the "BOTTOM OF THE BARREL ". As they say Cream rises to the top, shit settles to the bottom.

There are cycles with Aquatic insects,what is happening now is no cycle.Something major changed the ecosystem to affect 2 Aquatic insects to that degree.

Where is FUDR on this?? Why are they not conducting their own studies by hiring an independent Biologist to confirm what some of us are saying or thinking.

Maybe just maybe than we can find out what really happened.

Than the Multi Million Dollar question is ---How can you fix whatever issue it may be?

JOE.T

I would expect heavy metals to be in the sludge, as a lot of the volatile organics would be degraded over time. One way to check would be to look at the water testing results down stream from where they pull drinking water. Yea, its a long ways down stream and things would be diluted, but at the ppm levels they test they would still see a sustained bump, however slight. As for a fix, I would expect that all of the high water we had this spring would have washed alot of that stuff away, so whatever was killed could in theory repopulate. Lets see if there is a recovery in a year or 2. If so, maybe this theory makes sense.

I don't see the knotweed going away in our lifetime (if ever), only getting worse.

 

[JOE.T]

I would expect heavy metals to be in the sludge, as a lot of the volatile organics would be degraded over time. One way to check would be to look at the water testing results down stream from where they pull drinking water. Yea, its a long ways down stream and things would be diluted, but at the ppm levels they test they would still see a sustained bump, however slight. As for a fix, I would expect that all of the high water we had this spring would have washed alot of that stuff away, so whatever was killed could in theory repopulate. Lets see if there is a recovery in a year or 2. If so, maybe this theory makes sense.

I don't see the knotweed going away in our lifetime (if ever), only getting worse.

Great point with the heavy metals, nobody has brought that up as a possibility.Maybe if FUDR spent some of that One Bug money on doing some testing and research we'd have some concrete answers.

Knotweed go away Hah - I carry a machete these days.

 

[flyI4]

Great point with the heavy metals, nobody has brought that up as a possibility.Maybe if FUDR spent some of that One Bug money on doing some testing and research we'd have some concrete answers.

Knotweed go away Hah - I carry a machete these days.

The hatches have been bad everywhere, even on the freestones so to me that rules out the reservoirs/water quality as being the issue. The hatches started getting worse in or around the time we had the crazy winter where the hendricksons were coming off in late february. Everything hatched out by early june and it through the bug cycle for a loop. Hatches got even worse from what I saw following the two extremely cold winters we had several years ago that were some of the coldest on record. The west branch had ice on it just a few days before the opening day in 2015 I believe it was, which is unheard of. Anchor ice and just brutal conditions generally I think had an impact on the bug life. Then, last year we saw an extreme drought that left the main stem at 400cfs in the fall and had the beaverkill at 40 cfs for 5 months. These extreme weather conditions that impact flow and generally create volatility in nature are likely factors here as to the bug life diminishing.

 

[mudbug201]

These extreme weather conditions that impact flow and generally create volatility in nature are likely factors here as to the bug life diminishing.

Ding ding. We have a winner.

Only viable explanation for why hatches have been off across the region in different types of rivers.

 

[lightenup]

I also didn't see Sulphurs on the SBR like I have in the past.....caddis seem to hatch well in the evenings...but the Sulphurs on the SBR sucked this year...

 

[JOE.T]

The hatches have been bad everywhere, even on the freestones so to me that rules out the reservoirs/water quality as being the issue. The hatches started getting worse in or around the time we had the crazy winter where the hendricksons were coming off in late february. Everything hatched out by early june and it through the bug cycle for a loop. Hatches got even worse from what I saw following the two extremely cold winters we had several years ago that were some of the coldest on record. The west branch had ice on it just a few days before the opening day in 2015 I believe it was, which is unheard of. Anchor ice and just brutal conditions generally I think had an impact on the bug life. Then, last year we saw an extreme drought that left the main stem at 400cfs in the fall and had the beaverkill at 40 cfs for 5 months. These extreme weather conditions that impact flow and generally create volatility in nature are likely factors here as to the bug life diminishing.

Hatches have not been bad everywhere, at least not where I've been setting up camp this year.

You should get with your Buddy Jeff Church and ask him for the DEC reports and what he knows about the Water quality coming out of the reservoir than Chime back in.Without a doubt the Reservoir has had an impact the past few years.What I know about Entomol0gy is one thing you don't go from a summer just last year where we had good (not great)Dorothea Hatches and Invarias to what we have now unless an EVENT occurred between than and now.

The Anchor Ice was in 15 but we still had Sulphurs and Invarias the following Spring so what does that have to do with this year?.They just came a little late.The Beaverkill doesn't belong in this topic since your talking about APPLES and ORANGES 2 completely set of circumstances and Ecosystems


There are many people in Denial about this Topic.That's one of the Problems.

 

[Bigfishy]

I also didn't see Sulphurs on the SBR like I have in the past.....caddis seem to hatch well in the evenings...but the Sulphurs on the SBR sucked this year...

Thats cause they ALL moved down river to the non trout areas....:crap:

 

[Trout Nazi]

Ding ding. We have a winner.

Only viable explanation for why hatches have been off across the region in different types of rivers.

Not very likely. If an organism is not able to adapt and tolerate swings in environmental conditions (like, cold, hot, drought, etc.) it would not have evolved to fill that niche in the environment, period.

 

[flyI4]

Not very likely. If an organism is not able to adapt and tolerate swings in environmental conditions (like, cold, hot, drought, etc.) it would not have evolved to fill that niche in the environment, period.

To argue that extreme conditions can't impact hatches ignores history up there. Look at what happened after the 100 year flood in 04? Hug life was non existent for the rest of the year , and horrible the next year as well. It took a few years to get back to peak and some hatches never returned aside from the random bug here and there (tricos in some sections , drakes on the main stem).

 

[mudbug201]

Not very likely. If an organism is not able to adapt and tolerate swings in environmental conditions (like, cold, hot, drought, etc.) it would not have evolved to fill that niche in the environment, period.

haha. Thanks Charles Darwin. Okay, must be the knotweed then.

 

[Trout Nazi]

haha. Thanks Charles Darwin. Okay, must be the knotweed then.

I actually have a couple of Masters Degrees in science, and have been doing it for most of my career, how about you? Let’s look at the facts (oh no, not facts!). There was a time before FUDR when flows on the East and West Branch routinely got into the double digits, the water warmed, and the feast or famine extremes were much greater than they are now. The fish and bugs still lived, people still caught fish.

And to ignore the impact that knotweed has on the ecosystem is just plain ignorant.

 

[flyI4]

the fish are doing fine- this season was prob my best season I have ever had and there were more 20-24" fish around this year than I've ever seen in the system. The rivers are healthy . The bugs are not totally gone -I hit a decent sulpher hatch this weekend and saw some of the better hatch activity I've seen all season. That said- bug numbers are definitely down and I think it is normal to see fluctuations in bug life that coincide with extreme weather events. They aren't all dead- just down in numbers . It happens and has happened in the past. The fish are clearly eating well bc they are fat as hell with average fish size bigger than ever.

 

[mudbug201]

the fish are doing fine- this season was prob my best season I have ever had and there were more 20-24" fish around this year than I've ever seen in the system. The rivers are healthy . The bugs are not totally gone -I hit a decent sulpher hatch this weekend and saw some of the better hatch activity I've seen all season. That said- bug numbers are definitely down and I think it is normal to see fluctuations in bug life that coincide with extreme weather events. They aren't all dead- just down in numbers . It happens and has happened in the past. The fish are clearly eating well bc they are fat as hell with average fish size bigger than ever.

Same experience here. Had a couple of my best days yet this season, in terms of size and number of fish. Just didn't see the massive hatches I've seen up there in past years. (Caddis were the exception, and the fish seemed to be much more keyed in on them this year in the ares where I fish.)

Trout Nazi your enormous amount of scientific knowledge is clearly overkill for the problem we're trying to solve here. You've brought a bazooka to a knife fight - nobody's talking about the impending disappearance of any species, just a moderate but noticeable decrease in insect activity. So pulling out your evolutionary biology textbook is actually unnecessary. by the way, multiple Masters degrees? your mom must be so proud. Color me impressed

Anyway, if you'll excuse my ignorance I'm sticking with JC's theory that a few weird consecutive winters and springs have thrown off the reproductive cycle of bugs around the region. Seems plausible. And hey, it's less doom-and-gloom than all this talk about knotweed invasions and toxic sludge laced with heavy metals. (Jeezus.)

Hopefully, if we have a couple of "normal" seasons in a row, we should theoretically see a normalization of the hatches. If we keep alternating between warm and cold winters and seeing drought conditions in spring, things will probably get even worse.

(I hate knotweed too though. That shit sucks. I agree it has to have some kind of negative impact on streams and waterways all over the northeast, but I expect it will be more gradual than what we're talking about.)

 

[JOE.T]

To argue that extreme conditions can't impact hatches ignores history up there. Look at what happened after the 100 year flood in 04? Hug life was non existent for the rest of the year , and horrible the next year as well. It took a few years to get back to peak and some hatches never returned aside from the random bug here and there (tricos in some sections , drakes on the main stem).

JC

i'm not saying that extreme conditions can't impact Aquatic insects.It surely can.

I have been researching this situation (the reservoir ) in particular with a group of guys for a few years now.I'm not arguing with you, for God sake I know you since you where really fly14.I respect you and all of your opinions.

Why don't we set up a float trip with you,Churchy and I this way we can have some fun fishing and we can articulate our points much better in person, in other words in much greater detail on what we have come to find so far.

Regards Joe.t

 

[Trout Nazi]

Same experience here. Had a couple of my best days yet this season, in terms of size and number of fish. Just didn't see the massive hatches I've seen up there in past years. (Caddis were the exception, and the fish seemed to be much more keyed in on them this year in the ares where I fish.)

Trout Nazi your enormous amount of scientific knowledge is clearly overkill for the problem we're trying to solve here. You've brought a bazooka to a knife fight - nobody's talking about the impending disappearance of any species, just a moderate but noticeable decrease in insect activity. So pulling out your evolutionary biology textbook is actually unnecessary. by the way, multiple Masters degrees? your mom must be so proud. Color me impressed

Anyway, if you'll excuse my ignorance I'm sticking with JC's theory that a few weird consecutive winters and springs have thrown off the reproductive cycle of bugs around the region. Seems plausible. And hey, it's less doom-and-gloom than all this talk about knotweed invasions and toxic sludge laced with heavy metals. (Jeezus.)

Hopefully, if we have a couple of "normal" seasons in a row, we should theoretically see a normalization of the hatches. If we keep alternating between warm and cold winters and seeing drought conditions in spring, things will probably get even worse.

(I hate knotweed too though. That shit sucks. I agree it has to have some kind of negative impact on streams and waterways all over the northeast, but I expect it will be more gradual than what we're talking about.)

I don't know, you guys were sounding pretty doomy and gloomy there for a bit.

Now that you've solved this mystery, where will you and Scooby be driving the Mystery Machine to next?

 

[JOE.T]

Same experience here. Had a couple of my best days yet this season, in terms of size and number of fish. Just didn't see the massive hatches I've seen up there in past years. (Caddis were the exception, and the fish seemed to be much more keyed in on them this year in the ares where I fish.)

Trout Nazi your enormous amount of scientific knowledge is clearly overkill for the problem we're trying to solve here. You've brought a bazooka to a knife fight - nobody's talking about the impending disappearance of any species, just a moderate but noticeable decrease in insect activity. So pulling out your evolutionary biology textbook is actually unnecessary. by the way, multiple Masters degrees? your mom must be so proud. Color me impressed

Anyway, if you'll excuse my ignorance I'm sticking with JC's theory that a few weird consecutive winters and springs have thrown off the reproductive cycle of bugs around the region. Seems plausible. And hey, it's less doom-and-gloom than all this talk about knotweed invasions and toxic sludge laced with heavy metals. (Jeezus.)

Hopefully, if we have a couple of "normal" seasons in a row, we should theoretically see a normalization of the hatches. If we keep alternating between warm and cold winters and seeing drought conditions in spring, things will probably get even worse.

(I hate knotweed too though. That shit sucks. I agree it has to have some kind of negative impact on streams and waterways all over the northeast, but I expect it will be more gradual than what we're talking about.)

It's not only about Knotweed, unless you have done the research that I have with a few Old timers over the past few years related to the Reservoir.Your guessing.With all due respect This is Science and unless you have some data (we do) to prove otherwise let me know.

Nazi is right on the money "Trout Nazi your enormous amount of scientific knowledge is clearly overkill" there is no such thing as overkill with Science when it comes to a situation like this.

That's why it drives some of us nuts that FUDR does spend some money and do an independent study themselves.

The more knowledge we have (Science) than maybe there is a solution.

Tight Lines

Joe T

 

[JOE.T]

the fish are doing fine- this season was prob my best season I have ever had and there were more 20-24" fish around this year than I've ever seen in the system. The rivers are healthy . The bugs are not totally gone -I hit a decent sulpher hatch this weekend and saw some of the better hatch activity I've seen all season. That said- bug numbers are definitely down and I think it is normal to see fluctuations in bug life that coincide with extreme weather events. They aren't all dead- just down in numbers . It happens and has happened in the past. The fish are clearly eating well bc they are fat as hell with average fish size bigger than ever.

Lots of guys did very well especially with the high water and streamers.The fish are fat as hell for one reason.They had Alewifes for weeks on end, tremendous amounts of protein will do that.

It been proven that Fish populations are way down, and the 8-12 inch class of fish are almost non-existent.

The water quality is horrible ,every year the insects decline and in some cases disappear.

The West Branch is not a healthy ecosystem.That is a fact.