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Little Juniata River, Allegheny River..WB???

If we are already doing this type of program in PA, does anyone else agree we should be thinking about the WB Strain of fish? How about a joint venture between NY & PA to help build and implement such a WB Hatchery. Then in case the water was kept back, Acid rain,oil spill etc, etc, we got the fish and 2-4 yrs later we got our fishery back. The fish is still wild...the fish is still a WB Native Strain, just born in a test tube.

GBS




FINGERLING PROGRAM
While the Fish and Boat Commission's put-and-take trout-stocking program is well known even outside Pennsylvania, its fingerling trout- stocking program is done more quietly. While fingerling trout have been stocked for nearly as long as the Fish Commission has existed, the current program has only been in place for about two decades and stocking figures are not widely publicized. These trout are not yet large enough to be creeled when they are stocked. As a result, fishing pressure tends to be lower and is spread out more through the season.

The fingerling trout program, also known as "put-grow-and-take," has yielded some of the finest trout fisheries in the state, including the Little Juniata River and the section of the Allegheny River extending for several miles below the Kinzua Dam. Other success stories include the Allegheny Reservoir, the Youghiogheny River, Bald Eagle Creek and Tulpehocken Creek below Blue Marsh Dam.

Fingerling trout have also been used to restore trout populations in streams that are recovering from pollution. One example is the Schuylkill River from Middleport downstream to State Game Lands 286 near Schuylkill Haven, where fingerling brook trout have been stocked for a couple of years, and downriver, where fingerling browns have been stocked.

Fingerlings are generally put into streams that are so large that the return rates in put-and-take trout are low. The main requirement is that they are suitable to hold trout year 'round. Most fingerling trout that are planned for stocking are either browns or rainbows, because most of the waters in this program are too large and too warm to support brook trout.

When surplus brook trout fingerlings are available, which often happens, they are generally stocked into the Allegheny Reservoir, East Branch Clarion River Lake, Keystone Lake and Beaverdam Run Reservoir. Success rates are low, however, for this species.

Last year, area fisheries managers requested 723,700 brown trout fingerlings and 284,600 rainbow trout fingerlings. With the addition of the excess brook trout fingerlings, the total of fingerlings stocked amounted to about 1,833,000 trout last year.

This year, area fisheries managers have requested 1,093,100 fingerlings. This breaks down to 2,500 brook trout, 764,850 brown trout and 325,750 rainbow trout. The brook trout requested will be stocked into Big Spring Creek.

Premium fingerlings, trout that are about 6 inches in length, are stocked during fall. Surplus fingerlings are stocked during spring, when they are 2 to 4 inches in length. Survival rates for spring fingerlings are not nearly as good as for fall fingerlings.

Stocking fingerling trout is much less expensive than stocking legal- size trout. Rather than being fed in hatcheries, nature takes care of feeding them. In fertile waters like the Allegheny River, growth rates are excellent. Anglers frequently catch trout in the 4- to 8-pound range here. Growth rates are much slower in less fertile waters such as the Youghiogheny River, but it is still more cost effective to stock fingerlings than to stock larger trout.

"Sometimes we don't know the numbers until we see how many fish we have on hand," Tredinnick explained.

Often, many more trout are stocked than was originally planned because trout are stocked on an availability basis. Many of the fingerlings are excess trout, and those numbers cannot be anticipated.

Cooperative nurseries generally are the first priority for these fish. If conditions are poor at the co-op nurseries causing loss of fish, they are re-supplied with fingerlings. If water conditions in the co-op nurseries are good, as they were last year, there are excess fingerlings available.

In some cases, excess trout fingerlings are stocked into marginal waters rather than let them go to waste. Typically, 250,000 to more than 500,000 excess fingerlings become available.

"There's a lot of leeway there," Greene said. "Many fish are shipped in April before we have too many fish in the hatcheries taking up space, and a good portion of those are brook trout."

Snyder expects that the successful fingerling-stocking program will continue to expand.

http://www.pagameandfish.com/fishing/trout-fishing/pa_aa034304a/index1.html

GBS
 
There is nothing in the article that talks about what " Strain of Fish " these are. Just says fingerlings.

So, I agree to the extent that we should have a Plan B for the West Branch if there is ever a big fish kill, but would only agree if it the brood stock came from the west branch and the fertilizaion occured on a Hatchery set up on a trib using the same water that they would be born in in a natural setting.

I would still only use these fish to stock other waters until such a time came where they might be needed to re-establish the WB after a hypothetical disaster.

However, as far a protecting the fish is concerned, I believe the best things we can do is.

1. Provide the best possible Habitat through better water management.
2. Impose stricter regulations and increase the size of the no-kill zone on the WB and its tribs.
3. Continue to protect the riparian zone by land management.
4. And continue to take as good of care of the entire BEA/Moc , East Branch , Main Stem,
Neversink, Mongoup etc.. Cause face it there all connected.
5. A back up plan like yours would be great to have in case of emergency, but as I said I would not support anything with the words " Put and Take " in it. However if you did raise a WB strain if you will , I would support the stocking of that fish exclusively in all the connected river systems along with a Brood Stock taking from the Main Stems " Rainbows "

Bottom line is that all those other rivers are connected, Trout are Migratory and Invasive, so every year that goes buy the current Deleware and West Branch Wild ( rainbow and Brown) populations are getting intermingled with the current put and take stockies.

Ralph
 
Wb

We have succesfully done this in many Western Streams as well already. Take for example the Snake river which Dennis just returned from. The pictures say it all. Big Fish, Lots of fish, and if stocked as fingerlings, not only will some reproduce, they will grow to be wild. No my article does not state where PA gets there fish, although I think they get them from North Carolina, but I was useing this article as a jumping point. No I don't want a shmeg trout from NC but use the WB Brood to replentish the waters.

I think the first thing we need to do is make the entire river C & R. How can a wild population of fish be expected to survive with human predators???

I agree with Ralph that the tribs are stocked, therefore making the WB stocked. anyone know where those trout are coming from??? Anyone know if they are interbreeding???? How would ya all like to catch a cross between an WB Strain Brown and one made in Japan?

GBS
 
W.Branch

Green Butted Skunk said:
We have succesfully done this in many Western Streams as well already. Take for example the Snake river which Dennis just returned from. The pictures say it all. Big Fish, Lots of fish, and if stocked as fingerlings, not only will some reproduce, they will grow to be wild.

I think the first thing we need to do is make the entire river C & R. How can a wild population of fish be expected to survive with human predators???

GBS


GBS,

You make some good points which should be entertained. Maybe it could be the solution to the water release problems. In times of Drought we can rest assured the "fishery" will still be viable a few years later with the same strain of fish. I have been out west and experienced these great fisheries, possibly with proper hatchery management we could do the same with the W.Branch and as RFORD mentioned the Main stem Rainbows.

Tight Lines

Todd
 
GBS,

With all due respect, I don't think that the brown trout (or rainbows for that matter) in the Delaware system constitute a separate "strain". It would take hundreds of generations in genetic isolation to produce distinctive genetic (inherited) characteristics within a population. Given that the system hasn't been around long enough to cycle thru this many generations (and as has been noted, the fish are not isolated - stocked fish are able to migrate in and out), the characteristics that you are so fond of are the product of the environment, not unique genetics.

This in no way means that we shouldn't protect the fish that are there now, but it does mean that there is little value in planning what amounts to a "disaster recovery" hatchery system specific to this fishery.

One other note. It has been accepted (I won't say proven) that stocking fingerlings over a wild population is a bad idea. A healthy wild fishery needs no augmentation - the system will reach equilibrium based on the available food, shelter, spawning areas, etc. Adding additional fingerlings only increases competition for the resources available, which stresses the system rather than enhancing it.
 
Gone Fishin" said:
GBS,

With all due respect, I don't think that the brown trout (or rainbows for that matter) in the Delaware system constitute a separate "strain".


One other note. It has been accepted (I won't say proven) that stocking fingerlings over a wild population is a bad idea. A healthy wild fishery needs no augmentation - the system will reach equilibrium based on the available food, shelter, spawning areas, etc. Adding additional fingerlings only increases competition for the resources available, which stresses the system rather than enhancing it.

Fishin'

Respectfully; When I refer to the WB Strain I am refereing to trout that have proven themseves as hearty, reproducing fish for this body of water. Maybe I should say brood. I truely think these fish have "Adapted and eveolved" to the Deleware river system and have become distinct to this body of water.

On the other note, I do not believe I have explained myself completly. If we are introducing the spawn of a wild fish back into its natural environment, is that fingerling who grew and reproduced not wild? Is its offspring not wild? As for the healthy wild fishery needs no augmentation, what about the streches of the WB that are catch and keep? This factor certainly offsets the equilibrium. Unless the river is 100% Catch and Release the river will continue to be in jeapordy. What I am proposing is introducing the "wild" fingerlings back into their own water. If they compete for food with other wild trout, what is the difference? The strongest will survive..right. Many of the studies you are refering to are for example introducing a Kamaloop Rainbow to a Heritage Strain Brook Trout Pond, or the western example of introducing rainbow to a native Cutthoat Brook. Crazy talk. But if we put that same "Brood" spawned cutthroat fry back in that same stream, we could be helping our fishery.

GBS
 
Gone Fishin,

I agree it would take hundreds of generations to produce a distinct genetic species, but do not agree that it takes even close to that for evolution to start the process of elimination that weeds out the most fit to thrive ( we do it to ourselves every day ) in that rivers environment, that is why i think taking the brood stock from the river would be most benificial, fertilizing the eggs on a river side hatchery with the same water, nutrients etc.... .

But the bottom line is , there is no plan B for a large scale fish kill. Harsh years like this may also be away to continue to weed out the better fish and the fingerlings as you pointed out could stress the system, but at least if we had them, I feel they could help, remember they are not just Takers like 12 inch plus stockies, they are Food as well.

However, I still feel trying to Manage the tailwater is the first and formost way to protect the fishery, and No Kill may be even more important. In every case of recent extinctions, humans were the predator the put the final nail in the coffin. A wild fishery can not sustain itself with 5 miles of no kill and 10 miles of general regulations.

The fellas with the stringers will tailspin this wild fishery before warm water does.

Ralph



Gone Fishin" said:
GBS,

With all due respect, I don't think that the brown trout (or rainbows for that matter) in the Delaware system constitute a separate "strain". It would take hundreds of generations in genetic isolation to produce distinctive genetic (inherited) characteristics within a population. Given that the system hasn't been around long enough to cycle thru this many generations (and as has been noted, the fish are not isolated - stocked fish are able to migrate in and out), the characteristics that you are so fond of are the product of the environment, not unique genetics.

This in no way means that we shouldn't protect the fish that are there now, but it does mean that there is little value in planning what amounts to a "disaster recovery" hatchery system specific to this fishery.

One other note. It has been accepted (I won't say proven) that stocking fingerlings over a wild population is a bad idea. A healthy wild fishery needs no augmentation - the system will reach equilibrium based on the available food, shelter, spawning areas, etc. Adding additional fingerlings only increases competition for the resources available, which stresses the system rather than enhancing it.
 
GBS, I guess we can agree to disagree. It doesn't matter where the fingerlings come from - the system can support x number of fingerlings each year (of course that will vary from year to year based on a number of factors, but you get the idea). If we artificially increase that number, even if those fingerlings are closely related to the ones that are born in the stream, the system gets out of balance. I expect that you would see more "stunted" fish if you kept dumping in fingerlings. Remember, nature abhors a vacuum. Unless the catch and keep rates are decimating the numbers (which I doubt), the resident wild (stream-breeding) fish will be able to keep up their numbers w/o any help from us.

Regarding the Delaware system fish adapting and evolving to the system, I agree that the fish in there are the ones that have best adapted (survival of the fittest/natural selection). But I disagree that they've evolved distinctive genetic traits - if you killed every one of them and restocked with "run-of-the-mill" browns and rainbows and gave them a chance to reproduce naturally, in surprisingly little time you would have the same quality of fish that you have now. I wouldn't want this to happen of course, but I don't think we have to plan a back-up system in the event of a collapse. I would rather see the money and efforts going towards the types things that Ralph listed to enhance the environment.
 
Wb

Gone Fishin' said:
GBS, I guess we can agree to disagree.

Fair enough, Just like the sport of flyfishing, it seems the methods to protect the fishery are just as different and divided as the number of perfect "Poles" we can choose from to catch the fish.

GBS
 
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