Indian Springs. Now Border Water Outfitters Gone?

[khuhner]

I recently heard a rumour that the Border Water Outfitters store located in Hancock looks bare.

Anyone know if they are still in business or have folded?

I know that Indian Springs Camp (on the Delaware) subdivided its property and sold "shares" and has turned private.


Kurt

 

[Kilgour Farms]

If this is true, which I'm sure it is, it shows just how little the fly fishermen contribute to the local economy. If you can't keep a flyfishing shop open, what makes you think that the fishermen are running the local economy? Sure they contribute to the local economy but to say they are a major player in the economy is ridiculous? Most of he fishermen buy their equipment either on line or through various trade shows, swaps, etc.

 

[FiSHON!]

or ebay

its a sad state of affairs

 

[beaverkill]

While I agree it is sad that more fly fishing stores can't stay open, to say that it proves how little fly fishing contributes to the local economy is not accurate.

The vast majority of the money coming into the local communities from the fly fishermen is from hotels, camp sites, restaurants, bars, gas stations, grocery stores, guides, etc.

The reasons a fly shop goes out of business can be many including competition, service received, merchandise carried, cost of rent, association with specific organizations that the community may not agree with, etc.

 

[COZ]

I realy get a kick out of you that assume and speculate. With that said lets set the Record straight. I own Border Water Outfitters and it is not out of business and the store is not empty. For the past three out of four years all fly shops and sproting stores that depend on the Delaware have suffered financial set backs due to the three floods. Unlike most of you doom and gloomers I am optimistic about the rivers recovery and more optimistic about the town of Hancock. The future of the local towns along the river in this area is proven to be tourisim. Timber and stone will always be as important but without the tourists all the doors would close.Two resent studies done for both Hancock and Deposit pointed to on common factor, the river and the tourists. So much so that a local Hancock businessman/logger has invested $5 million in the new hotel on East Front Street. Did I fail to mention it is ten paces from Border Water Outfitters front door? Da! What about the 1/4 million Revitilization money for East Front Street and the pending purchace of the old Great American by the Town and village for a center square/park.
There is already talk of a river park/access from the center of town so thoes of you that actually fish this river will have another place to go to get access. So unlike thoes of you that sit home on your A___ and try to solve the problems of the D from your recliners, the people and business of Hancock and Deposit are pushing forward. So yes BWO will be open this spring April 1., but not for you doom and gloomers but for the several thousand customers and friends that go out of their way to visit the D during good or bad fishing conditions and stop by and spend a buck to support the local economy. It's not always about the catch but the adventure and the friends made along the way. They get it! Thoes of you in the recliners will never GET IT!

As for Lee Hartman and Indian Springs. I commend his friends that have enough forsight to preserve their little place on the D for their family and grand kids. Lee is still a member of IS and will enjoy more days on the water fishing on his own. Enjoy your Retirement Lee!

See you in the Spring!

COZ

 

[jaydub]

Well said, COZ.

 

[babyblue]

You locals better get on the bus, or be left at the stop or run over. I opt for run over!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[uffdoc]

COZ:
Nice to hear from yo0u in the off season. I am looking forward to seeing you in the shop very soon. Hats off to the forward thinkers out there.

 

[knightwatch]

1. In spite of the accusations that trout fishermen are less than desirable in the community, they are still aggressively welcome by the local community. Message (we need the money). You only have to visit the community in February to sense how appreciative they are of the business in May (restaurants, hotels, fly shops, hardware stores...on and on). No one can argue that the infrastucture is in desperate need of tax dolllars (serious mention of these matters in the Hancock Herald; schools especially). If you want to disparage the fishermen, dig your own hole!!!). If you think that the community with thrive with lumber and stone you are painfully naive. Or congratulations, you are one of the few that own enough land to cut trees, dig for rocks, sand and gravel.

2. The contribution of fishing to the community has no more to do with the status of local fly shops than CVS has to do with a non existence of a local pharmacy. COZ has a passion and dedication to keep his shop open because most of us need it and he enjoys it! Where do you intend to get your daily info on the upper river and buy you flies if you can't get them in Hancock (drive ten or fifteen miles to the nearest??). Destination fly shops are not an easy business and do not remotely reflect the economic impact of fly fishing and most certainly do not reflect the politics of Hancock.

3. Lee Hartman should be congratulated on the handover of Indian Springs to a private group of fishermen and friends. He has purchased a home on the River and is dedicated to the presevation and continuation of his favorite fishing destination. He didn't sell out and move to Montana. He chose to live in Equinunk and partner with his original creation.

Most people want to preserve and enhace the local environment (water) with no negative changes (excessive developmental encroacment). Unfortunately, there continues to be a negative slant that plays the fiddle while Rome burns!! Let our water go! We are about to aquiesce to another reduction in release.

 

[Future Fanatic]

If you think that the community with thrive with lumber and stone you are painfully naive. Or congratulations, you are one of the few that own enough land to cut trees, dig for rocks, sand and gravel.

Just one point. I'm not sure who the naive one is here. Logging and stone cutting have a HUGE impact on the Delaware County economy. Implying that one must own land to benefit from these endeavors is like saying one must own the river to make money in the trout fishing industry. Sure landowners benefit, but by and large they are not the ones cutting stone, felling and skidding logs or cutting lumber. All of these "steps along the way" inject cash (and lots of it) into the communities. And let us not forget farming. These industries helped build Delaware County. The trout have been around for thirty years or so(and I'll bet, pale in comparison to the money these other industries provide to DC).

Go to the Chamber of Commerce web page :

Business Demographics

to see where fishing related businesses fit in to the scheme of things right now as far as the Chamber is concerned.

 

[Scott]

Go to the Chamber of Commerce web page :

Business Demographics

to see where fishing related businesses fit in to the scheme of things right now as far as the Chamber is concerned.

I did, and found this page where the COC seem to think pretty highly of where fishing fits in: Going Fishing

And they do indicate retail revenue: "Small specialty shops, department stores, and restaurants continue to join the ranks of the county's retailers. These include over 350 retail merchants with sales of nearly $385 million."

Of course, I don't know how much of that is related to fishing. Although I suppose if I really wanted to find out, I could contact them and ask.

 

[Future Fanatic]

I did, and found this page where the COC seem to think pretty highly of where fishing fits in: Going Fishing

And they do indicate retail revenue: "Small specialty shops, department stores, and restaurants continue to join the ranks of the county's retailers. These include over 350 retail merchants with sales of nearly $385 million."

Of course, I don't know how much of that is related to fishing. Although I suppose if I really wanted to find out, I could contact them and ask.

Yes Scott, it's listed right there with "exploring on snowshoes", "bike routes and trails" and "horse back riding".

But I'm not trying to say that there aren't people making some money in Delaware County based on fishermen, just that we all need to have some perspective as to it's place in the economy.

Doesn't most of that money "stay" on the other side of the river in Pennsylvania, anyway?

 

[brachycentrus]

Reflecting these demographics, The American Sportfishing Association and Trout Unlimited, in a jointly sponsored 1996 study, "The Economic Impact of Trout Fishing On the Delaware River Tailwaters in New York" (done only for Delaware County in New York, though it does provide a window into the region) found that angling for the Delaware's wild trout resulted in some $17.69 million in local revenues and generated some $30 million in local economic activity.

 

[Future Fanatic]

Bluestone industry is a big, small industry

A Quote:

That industry is the quarrying and the fabrication of bluestone.

Harry “Sonny” Triebe, president of the New York Bluestone Association and owner of Sonny & Sons Stone Company of Downsville, numbers about 140 quarrymen in his association. Robert “Butch” Coleman, president of the Pennsylvania Bluestone Association lists another 110 members.

“Many of the bluestone quarries are small ones, not full time,” Treibe said. “Many quarrymen have other jobs and work in a small quarry that they might own or lease. They may work in the late afternoon or evening to supplement their salaries to support their families.”

In recent years, however, the industry has experienced steady growth.

“We’re trying to supply the whole country,” Coleman said. “It’s a constant growth opportunity. The construction companies are always knocking at our doors.”

Triebe and Coleman estimate that the bluestone industry is worth about $300 million to $500 million today, with 4,000 to 5,000 employees in the Southern Tier and northeast Pennsylvania combined."

And that's just Bluestone...

 

[knightwatch]

Future:

Many thanks for the Delaware County website. Interesting statistics:


Labor Statistics
Work Force Available 325,300
Work Force Employed 306,600
Unemployment Rate 5.7%
Underemployment Rate 32.2%
Average Hourly Manufacturing Wage $16.25


Demographic Highlights
Population 47,600
Households 17,600
Per Capita Income $14,312
High School Graduates 74%

Per capita income? Poverty level for a family of four about 20K?? Stone, lumber and farming have a huge impact!! We don't need those stinkin fishermen!!! We like our community and infrastructure to sustain a slow rot.

By the way I own about a mile of frontage on the mainstem in Wayne County and pay my taxes there. However, like most of us carpetbaggers, we depend on New York for 90% of our staples spend most of our living expenses in Hancock or nearby communities. I recently had dinner in the best restaurant in town and I was the only person there all night. Do you think they had a problem with the fishermen?? Like most of the business in the River Valley, they can't wait until April.

I'm certain that 99% of the residents and those visiting the River Valley want nothing more than to see it remain pristine and yet improve the environment and resources of the local communities. Very few want a booming tourist economy starving the local natural resources. But wouldn't it be nice to see it get a can of paint? Wouldn't it be nice for the River get a bigger share of blatantly wasted water??

Pete

 

[Future Fanatic]

Future:

Many thanks for the Delaware County website. Interesting statistics:

Wayne County Pa: Per capita is about $16900, just thought you'd like to know.

Per capita income? Poverty level for a family of four about 20K?? Stone, lumber and farming have a huge impact!! We don't need those stinkin fishermen!!! We like our community and infrastructure to sustain a slow rot.

You put down stone as not having a positive impact on the economy. But it's impact in Delaware County is at least TWICE as much as the fishing industry. So the fishing impact is twice as not important as stone?

And COZ tells us that is a LOGGER who is investing 5 million dollars into a hotel/restaurant. A LOGGER. (And his impact this year is one third of the ENTIRE impact of the fishermen?) Does that not help a little with perspective?

As I said before, " I'm not trying to say that there aren't people making some money in Delaware County based on fishermen, just that we all need to have some perspective as to it's place in the economy."

I'm certain that 99% of the residents and those visiting the River Valley want nothing more than to see it remain pristine and yet improve the environment and resources of the local communities. Very few want a booming tourist economy starving the local natural resources. But wouldn't it be nice to see it get a can of paint? Wouldn't it be nice for the River get a bigger share of blatantly wasted water??

Pete

A fresh coat of paint is always a welcome sight.

 

[Joe D]

John,

In with keeping things in perspective, it should be noted that the majority of the revenue and economic impact derived from the fishing industry takes place over an eight week period. Better resource management could triple these values. I don't think anyone say's that it's the largest industry in the area, just that it is significant.

With more visitors to an area the uniqueness of a local commodity, such as bluestone, has an added opportunity to showcase itself to additional users (purchasers) of the product. Outlets and markets develop not only for traditional uses, but also for nontraditional products such as artistic carvings, paintings, etc. Additionally, educational opportunities in the form of museums and tours related to the stone and its end products provide increased revenue and marketing opportunities.

Also, take note that the majority of Pennsylvania bluestone quarries are in Susquehanna County, not Wayne County. The economic impact you mention is for New York's Southern Tier and Northeast Pennsylvania. This includes eight New York counties and seven Pennsylvania counties. I could be mistaken, but I understood this discussion to be on Delaware County and Broome County, NY and Wayne County, Pennsylvania.

Joe

 

[Future Fanatic]

John,

In with keeping things in perspective, it should be noted that the majority of the revenue and economic impact derived from the fishing industry takes place over an eight week period. Better resource management could triple these values. I don't think anyone say's that it's the largest industry in the area, just that it is significant.

It all adds up, yes.
But let's define significant. I'll try.
Please point out if I've made an error or if there is a lapse in logic, really(but I know someone will, )

There are 47,600 people in Delaware County. Per Capita wages are $14,312

47,600 multiplied by $14,312 comes to a total of $681,251,200 in wages paid to the residents of Delaware County.

IF fishing the D translates to $17,690,000, then that, divided by the $681,251,200 equals .0259669........ or 2.6% of the total wages paid to residents of Delaware County. 2.6% is 2.6%. Losing it would be significant to those where it represents the bulk of their income, obviously. But is 2.6% as siginificant as you thought or were led to believe?

With more visitors to an area the uniqueness of a local commodity, such as bluestone, has an added opportunity to showcase itself to additional users (purchasers) of the product. Outlets and markets develop not only for traditional uses, but also for nontraditional products such as artistic carvings, paintings, etc. Additionally, educational opportunities in the form of museums and tours related to the stone and its end products provide increased revenue and marketing opportunities.

When was the last time any of you "outta towners" up for a fly fishing trip, checked out the bluestone offerings? Did many of you even KNOW what bluestone was? (other then that you've seen it at the stone dock there in Deposit?) Be honest. Just wondering.

Also, take note that the majority of Pennsylvania bluestone quarries are in Susquehanna County, not Wayne County. The economic impact you mention is for New York's Southern Tier and Northeast Pennsylvania. This includes eight New York counties and seven Pennsylvania counties. I could be mistaken, but I understood this discussion to be on Delaware County and Broome County, NY and Wayne County, Pennsylvania.

Joe

The only reason I mentioned Wayne County was because Knightwatch seemed to be so intrigued with the figures from Delaware County and he had mentioned that he owned a mile of riverfront in Wayne County, PA.

 

[Joe D]

John,

You're confusing wages with revenue. Wages include the money paid by the largest employers in the region, such as the state, schools, hospitals, and municipal governments. That money primarily comes from taxpayers. These taxes include income, sales, property and school.

Per capita income is simply the amount of total personal income divided by the population. It is not average wages. It is not a measure of distribution of wealth. It's also important to know what the US Census Bureau considers income. Per capita income includes income from all sources, including unemployment and other government programs.

As far as bluestone goes, my local town sidewalks and many of the historic buildings are made from it. There are many buildings in Philadelphia and New York City that utilize bluestone and it is used in many landscaping applications. I guess you thought all the stone that's quarried in the area was used locally. There is more of a demand for the product out of the area than in it. Also, I know of several people that overloaded their vehicle with bluestone on more than one occasion to take home with them after their visit to the Upper Delaware.

Now aside from anything else, $17,690,000 is a lot of money. And even if we used your figure of 2.6%, it is still significant. Otherwise you would have to conclude that the people of Delaware County are insignificant to the State of New York since they represent only 1.6% of the population, and yet we know they are significant.

It's often too easy for us to throw statistics around. In the words of one of my high school math teachers: "statistics are like a prostitute, once you get them down you can do anything you want with them. They're like a bikini, they show the facts, but hide the essentials."

Time to move on to the matters of fishing and deciding if I want to tie and try some new patterns and materials or stick to my old standbys...

Joe

 

[Future Fanatic]

John,

You're confusing wages with revenue. Wages include the money paid by the largest employers in the region, such as the state, schools, hospitals, and municipal governments. That money primarily comes from taxpayers. These taxes include income, sales, property and school.

Per capita income is simply the amount of total personal income divided by the population. It is not average wages. It is not a measure of distribution of wealth. It's also important to know what the US Census Bureau considers income. Per capita income includes income from all sources, including unemployment and other government programs.
Now aside from anything else, $17,690,000 is a lot of money. And even if we used your figure of 2.6%, it is still significant. Otherwise you would have to conclude that the people of Delaware County are insignificant to the State of New York since they represent only 1.6% of the population, and yet we know they are significant.

My intent was to show how much money was "income" for the people of DC and show where the "fishing money" fit in. 2.6%. I guess our definitions of significant are different.

As far as bluestone goes, my local town sidewalks and many of the historic buildings are made from it. There are many buildings in Philadelphia and New York City that utilize bluestone and it is used in many landscaping applications. I guess you thought all the stone that's quarried in the area was used locally. There is more of a demand for the product out of the area than in it. Also, I know of several people that overloaded their vehicle with bluestone on more than one occasion to take home with them after their visit to the Upper Delaware.

Are you sure that you town's sidewalks are not slate? Slate is a metamorphic shale. Bluestone is a sandstone. I remember Elizabeth's sidewalks were slate. But that was many moons ago.

It's often too easy for us to throw statistics around. In the words of one of my high school math teachers: "statistics are like a prostitute, once you get them down you can do anything you want with them. They're like a bikini, they show the facts, but hide the essentials."

Joe

And that's been going on, on the part of some, for some time now. But, I tried to lay out my numbers and process so you could all see from where my numbers came. I think it's pretty clear to see where the "fishing money" fits in.

Have a good day!

 

[brachycentrus]

Reflecting these demographics, The American Sportfishing Association and Trout Unlimited, in a jointly sponsored 1996 study, "The Economic Impact of Trout Fishing On the Delaware River Tailwaters in New York" (done only for Delaware County in New York, though it does provide a window into the region) found that angling for the Delaware's wild trout resulted in some $17.69 million in local revenues and generated some $30 million in local economic activity.

I would point out that this was a 1996 survey. There are considerably more people using the resource now than 10 years ago.

 

[Future Fanatic]

I would point out that this was a 1996 survey. There are considerably more people using the resource now than 10 years ago.

Granted. 3.6% then.

And I'll point out that the study as to how much money was spent on sport fishing on the Delaware river was conducted in part by " The American Sportfishing Association", self described as "The American Sportfishing Association (ASA) is the sportfishing industry’s trade association, committed to looking out for the interests of the entire sportfishing community".

But I used their numbers anyway with no protestations.

AND, didn't "A River Runs Through It" come out in the early ninties?

 

[brachycentrus]

Reflecting these demographics, The American Sportfishing Association and Trout Unlimited, in a jointly sponsored 1996 study, "The Economic Impact of Trout Fishing On the Delaware River Tailwaters in New York" (done only for Delaware County in New York, though it does provide a window into the region) found that angling for the Delaware's wild trout resulted in some $17.69 million in local revenues and generated some $30 million in local economic activity.

I would point out that this was a 1996 survey. There are considerably more people using the resource now than 10 years ago.

As the quote points out, this 10 year old study was for Delaware County and did not include Sullivan County or Pennsylvania. It was jointly done by ASA and Trout Unlimited for a 2 month season, May and June. If this system was ever managed for it's true potential, then that figure would magnify.

 

[knightwatch]

John:

I don't think I was denigrating the importance of the Blue Stone industry (I have spent a fair amount of time and money in East Branch supplying three homes with bluestone counter tops).

The point was that the Bluestone, and lumber industries (while having the most economic impact) are not enough to sustain and improve the local economy and infrastructure.

Your demographics should include only the area from Deposit to Roscoe and not the entire Delaware County. I would be willing to bet that 30 million is a lot more than 2 or 3 percent. It may be that the local business association or perhaps the banks would have the real numbers.

Don't you think that Russel Bass is counting on fishermen??

Pete

 

[Future Fanatic]

Don't you think that Russel Bass is counting on fishermen??

Pete

This is a GREAT question. A really, really thought provoking one.

But before I answer that one, I must say I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here. Given your low number of posts, and my not knowing you by any other screen name (if you've been here a while) I really don't know whether you strive to find "THE TRUTH" as it were or you strive to promote an agenda. I hesitate to start an earnest discussion with eyes to the former only to be hit with the latter.

Let me just start with the question, do you know Mr. Bass?

 

[knightwatch]

John:

Do I know Mr. Bass?:

I have met him one time only and wished him luck in his venture. It appears that he will provide a nidus of revitalization in the town or Hancock that is somewhat historically fashioned. It should be a welcomed addition and I look forward to its completion.

Do I have an agenda?

Most certainly, I have fished all over the US and parts of Canada. The Mainstem is my favorite and I spend as much time there as possible. I'm not certain that there is another system that provides as much variety of insect life, as much challenge, or the unique fight of the Mainstem rainbow.

I plan to be in Trenton tomorrow morning. If for no reason other than to further my frustration with the lack of concern for Mainstem water. My first experience with the DRBC. I hope we aren't disappointed and spend all summer complaining on this website about the lack of water and lack of compliance.

Pete

 

[Future Fanatic]

John:

I hope we aren't disappointed and spend all summer complaining on this website about the lack of water and lack of compliance.

Pete

I hope we all feel this way.

Then to the question.

I don't know Mr. Bass. I know people who, like you, have spoken to him about his hotel/restaurants.

What I've inferred:

He's a VERY good businessman. He owns a large lumber/bluestone operation. He owns a golf course/clubhouse. He has been successful enough as to secure what is said to be a $5,000,000 investment in his hotel/restaurants project.

Given this, the question is why do "The Hancock House"? In my mind I answer this with simply, "he thinks that this veture will make money". He is a great businessman; he must know what he is doing. I can only assume he has thought through everything and has come to the conclusion that IT WILL BE SUCCESSFUL.

To your question as to him "counting on fishermen"... This is where it gets a bit fuzzy in my mind. His decision to do this project was made sometime in the recent past, I would think. Within the last few years, anyway. What evidence would he have that he is going to fill his hotel with fishermen?

He made his decision to go forward at a time when the following was going on:
The new flow "plan" now several years old and was described as a disaster by some. He would have heard about the low water, warm water,fish kills and declining number of fishermen in Hancock. The future of the fishery seemed(seems) to be in doubt. Even TODAY, critics wonder about the viability of the fishery given a final resolution not being in place.

Did he have ANY evidence that once he built the Hotel, there would be any fishermen to fill it at all? KW, you said you were the ONLY one in the "best restaurant in town" the other day. Mr. Bass eats. I bet he eats at "the best restaurant in town" from time to time. Does the fact that it is deserted provide him with evidence that HIS two eateries would be filled?

Again, I have to believe that he has looked at everything out there and has decided it is a good investment. I have a hard time believing his decision could have been based on the idea that fishermen would fill this place. The jury is still out on whether or not there will be fishermen, yes?

Is he a gambling man? Was he willing to gamble 5 million on all the political entities involved, providing more water for the fishery some time in the future AFTER his hotel was built? That does not seem like a good business strategy. And I've already stated that he is a very good businessman.

Speaking of gambling, maybe his decision had more to do with NYS allowing gambling in the Catskills. THAT will certainly be bring MORE people up this way. There was more than enough evidence of that coming to fruition when he would have pondering his decision to move forward with this some years back.

So, when he was making his decision to build a hotel, fishermen being in Hancock was highly in doubt due to the proposed/new flow regime. So why did he decide to invest 5 million?

Great question indeed.

 

[khuhner]

John:

I hope we aren't disappointed and spend all summer complaining on this website about the lack of water and lack of compliance.

Pete

Agreed! All I wanted to know was if the store is open or closed. I happen to like BWO and the staff. I'd hate to see them gone.

As far as the compliance/DRBC, I'd recommend people attend the DRBC meeting on March 6th in Trenton (see the proposal and information related thread here). Many from the fishing community will be there to testify and to show support.

Regards,
Kurt

 

[Kilgour Farms]

Camps. Does anyone here realize that the 20 plus camps in the area generate the vast majority of the tourist dollars? These campers spend tens of millions of dollars in the local economies.
You have the theater, bowling alley, canoe liveries, golf courses and ice cream stands to name a few that are flooded with these people. They also use the commercial laundry. All these activities contribute much needed local dollars. When the campers and counselors have free time in the town itself they frequent the local food establishments all summer and spend huge amounts of money.
These camps are comprised of up to 400 children in each camp for about 8 weeks. The counselors are here even longer. Their economic contributions are one of the largest in the area rivaling stone and logging.
Most of the hotels and motels in the area are full during the summer. They are filled with the parents of the campers, travelers, people on vacation, hunters and people who use the river for recreation. This is main reason for the Hancock House.
Stone quarries and Logging are the mainstays in the area, as well as the Family School, Hancock’s largest employer. Did you know most quarries that are leased and are small in size. The people who own these leased quarries make about 10-12% on anything that can be used commercially. This is after clearing the overburden which can be up to 30 feet deep. There is no guarantee that they will find a viable vain to use.
Although there is a lot of processing of Bluestone done in Susquehanna County, most of the high quality stone comes from Wayne and Delaware counties. The Hancock area is called the Bluestone capital of the world because most of the high quality block Bluestone is found in the immediate area of Hancock.
Logging has always been a mainstay in the area and will continue to be that. You don’t need hundreds of acres to make an income. With good forest management practices it can be lucrative for both the landowner and logger.
Fly fishing does play a role in the local economy although a lesser role. Statistically, fishing equipment expenditures account for less then 12% of all non resident /tourist anglers. Travel expenditures account for about 20% for nonresident/tourist anglers in New York with lodging, food and travel accounting for over 60% according to ASA. Remember this is for all fishermen.

 

[Joe D]

John,

If someone was to invest or speculate in real estate on a casino that has yet to be built, and has yet to be approved and is currently being strongly lobbied against, wouldn't you think that "someone" would spend his money closer to the "action", instead of more than 50 miles from it?

Speaking of gambling, maybe his decision had more to do with NYS allowing gambling in the Catskills. THAT will certainly be bring MORE people up this way.

Was he willing to gamble 5 million on all the political entities involved before a casino is even approved, let alone built? Did he have any evidence that once he built the Hotel, there would be any gamblers to fill it?

I bet he eats at "the best restaurant in town" from time to time. Does the fact that it is deserted provide him with evidence that HIS two eateries would be filled?

The plain fact that this observation took place "the other day", during the off season, certainly shows that Mr. Bass knows that he will be somewhat dependant on the tourist and fishermen trade.

In real estate, location is everything. So, if someone invests in the tourism business in a town/area that recieves two months or more of the tourist season in fisherman traffic, it would only stand to reason that the investor plans to benefit from that traffic.

Seeds are sown each year with the risk that it might not rain. If you sit around and wait to see what's going to happen, nothing happens. There isn't a businessman in the area who wouldn't welcome just 1% of the insignificant revenue generated by fishing to the total gross. And just think, if a new business is successful in serving the fishing community and attracts more and new customers it will increase the value of the industry.

The jury is still out on whether or not there will be fishermen, yes?

No, the jury is not out based on the bookings of area businesses related to or in the fishing business being the same or greater than previous years at the same time period. If you believe there will be no fishermen in The Hancock/Deposit area this season you are wrong.

By the way, the road I live off of has a name change a few hundred yards away to Bluestone Drive. My guess is it got the name from the several bluestone quarries along it. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the older sidewalks in town originally came from these quarries.

Take care,

Joe