Global Warming

[Joe D]

Dozens of hunters and anglers from across the country came to Washington, DC on February 12, 2008 to make sure Congress listens to the voice of sportsmen on global warming.

Read the rest here: Hunting and Angling Groups Demand Climate Action | Targetglobalwarming.org

 

[Trout Nazi]

Ok, here we go, opening the Pandora's box. Global warming may be happening, but there is no definative proof that humans are the root cause. And even if was caused by humans, good luck getting China and India to play along.

 

[Montauklax]

And there's no definitive proof smoking causes cancer and emphysema...

But I will agree that this topic leads nowhere good on a message board. On China and India too.

 

[Trout Nazi]

Actually, there is definitive proof that smoking causes both cancer and emphysema.

Point I'm making is that Global Warming has become a political agenda, about hype and not about science. It may be happening, but the root causes are probably out of our control. The earth heats up and cools down over cycles that last millennia. It just angers me that everyone automatically accepts whats put out there by the media without question.

And I'll leave China and India alone, since each nations disregard for the environment is obvious.

 

[Mike Ridolfino]

I won't speculate on whether its happening or not, but regardless of the cause(s), ignoring it won't get us any closer to an answer. I applaud the scientists and sportsmen who are bringing this to the attention of the people in charge. At the very least, its a more worthwhile topic for Congress to debate than steroids in baseball.

 

[Trout Nazi]

The Earth warmed, cooled, warmed, and then cooled again long before we here. Whether its happening now is really out of our control. The Earth will warm again, and then it will cool. Stopping any kind of pollution is good, but how about focusing on something realistic and quantifiable?

 

[Montauklax]

The Earth warmed, cooled, warmed, and then cooled again long before we here. Whether its happening now is really out of our control. The Earth will warm again, and then it will cool. Stopping any kind of pollution is good, but how about focusing on something realistic and quantifiable?

Do you have access to recent scholarly scientific journals? Otherwise any information you're spouting is merely conjecture. Do your sources run deeper than talk radio, the Wall Street Journal, Fox news, and CNN?

The media is not creating this information, they're only relaying it from expert climatologists. Take a look at the consensus among experts in the field of climate change then reconsider. I find it interesting that we as a society can accept much of what scientists present to us, until it forces fundamental changes in our lifestyles. Whether or not we can solve the problem is one issue but hiding from it is something entirely different.

Fortunately, whomever wins this year's presidential election will have already acknowledged that there is a man made climate dilemma. Like it or not, the tables have started to turn on this issue. Both is terms of public opinion and policy.

 

[dcabarle]

The media is not creating this information, they're only relaying it from expert climatologists.

Anyone can be a climatologist! Let's face it, each part of the world has its average weather forecast... It's summer time, it's going to be hot! Media (weatherpeople) are only right if they're looking out the window while giving the weather.

Take a look at the consensus among experts in the field of climate change then reconsider.

Like Al Gore? Just kidding, I thought his presentation was well though out and very good but, can we really fight it? Where does his information come from and who's feeding it to him? Do the people feeding him this info have a special adjenda for themselves? Don't answer that one!

I find it interesting that we as a society can accept much of what scientists present to us, until it forces fundamental changes in our lifestyles.

It's because we're human. This doesn't just relate to climate change but how many times have you offered someone advice and they don't take it? "Hey Bud... you's livin in tournado alley, you oughtta git yerself some a that insurance on yer trailer". Then a tournado hits and ole' bud says, "Shoulda listened to Billy bob".

Whether or not we can solve the problem is one issue but hiding from it is something entirely different.

Agreed.

Fortunately, whomever wins this year's presidential election will have already acknowledged that there is a man made climate dilemma. Like it or not, the tables have started to turn on this issue. Both is terms of public opinion and policy.

But will it matter enough to them? Probably not, the government can only be sure of 1 thing... Raising your taxes so they have more money, benefits, and pensions, etc... for themselves!

 

[Future Fanatic]

You can't take millions of years worth of stored carbon(fossil fuels) and throw them up into the atmosphere over the course of about a hundred years, and expect that it won't have some sort of significant impact. NO MATTER what sort of natural cycle we MIGHT be in. Please, think about it.

 

[knightwatch]

there is currently a conference in New York: (International Conference on Climate Change) comprised of leading climatologists and economists.

These appear to be very environmentally concerned scientists. However, the overwhelming consensus is that the current political pandering to global warming is misleading. The evidence against CO2 emissions as a cause is very strong and has been ignored by those that propagate this theory. Changing temperatures are a normal phenomena and should not be construed as a crisis.

Dr. Bob Carter a research professor from Queensland Australia stated that the average Global temperature has actually not changed in nine years and appears to be decreasing at this time in spite of a 4% increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide. Scientific studies have shown that temperature increases precede increased CO2 levels and do not follow and that past increases have been directly correlated with increased solar activity and not CO2 levels. Al Gore's hypotheses were clearly cherry picked. The founder of The Weather Station is actually suggesting that he may be criminally libel for propagating the purchase of carbone credits. There are many reasons to conserve energy but global warming is not one.

 

[Green Highlander]

Did General Electric cause the Ice Age? Did you know there were more greenhouse gases present on earth when the dinosaurs walked the planet than there are now? Core sample show that glaciers began receeding well before the industrial revolution. Polar ice has come back with avengeance this year and it snowed in Baghdad. Why do they find remnants of old sea beds in the middle of deserts? We have only been keeping track of these records for a short period of time in relation to the age of mother earth, put out the fire in your hair, buy an SUV and enjoy life. Like another poster said everyone has to buy into it and good luck getting China and India to agree. The earth is not in peril people, the human race may be but not the earth. She will survive regardless of what us idiots do to destroy her.

GH

 

[eddavidson9]

The earth is not in peril people, the human race may be but not the earth. She will survive regardless of what us idiots do to destroy her.

GH

Couldn't have said it better myself. Doesn't mean I don't think measures, based on GOOD SCIENCE, shouldn't be taken to minimize out impact to ourselves and others...but (virtually) regardless of what we do, the earth and life on it will be here long after we're gone.

 

[Joe D]

Global warming or no global warming, I don't think it would hurt anything to reduce pollution. If the scientists are right, we gain... if they are wrong we gain. Or rather our children gain.

 

[Stonefly]

A recent study out of England, now claims that we are starting to cool down again, that alot of the globle warming is also the result of high sun spot activity, with is starting to decline....so who really knows, in the 80's the same scientific researchers talking about globle warming were then talking about nuclar winter!

Al Gore just as an aside, and the producers of his movie were sued in Great Britian over some of his content...6 of his core points were found by the high court to be false and or misleading. These points had to be edited out of the movie before it could be shown in classrooms.

I read the Daily Mirror, London Times and others on line every day.

 

[Flygal]

Why is it we think we are outside the chain of events "global chaos" (we must save the earth) instead of just a link in an organic, unpredictable system?

Humans have not created anything that the raw ingredients did not originate on earth, so why is it a negative, foreign or other than nature (man made)?

Are we not a product of nature?

 

[MACFLY]

Hey now this is a hot topic....get it Hot topic...anyways I thought here are a couple of interesting articles on the topic.


EarthSave International

pass the tofu anyone.

2008 International Conference on Climate Change * New York City * March 2-4, 2008

sounds like there is some discension in the ranks

Cool It - Bjørn Lomborg

Now lets apply a little cold hard math to the situation

In any event...I think all of the above is kind of ridiculous. Isn't conserving energy a national security issue? also if we are free market where capitalism is king should we still be subsidizing oil companies...finally isnt one of our key value propositions the idea that we continue to innovate in the area of alternative energy. Believe me when I tell you I have seen some very cool concepts being developed as an alternative to fossil fuels. with all that being said Im not sure whether we are causing global warming...I am convinced we continue to pollute our water and land which cant be good for us in the mid to long term.....i smell an opportunity:>)

 

[Catskill Mountain Man]

Actually, there is definitive proof that smoking causes both cancer and emphysema.

Point I'm making is that Global Warming has become a political agenda, about hype and not about science. It may be happening, but the root causes are probably out of our control. The earth heats up and cools down over cycles that last millennia. It just angers me that everyone automatically accepts whats put out there by the media without question.

And I'll leave China and India alone, since each nations disregard for the environment is obvious.

Its also known that CO2 is the main cause of global warming, along with methane and other gasses, now what does cars/most power plants and many other things emit? along with farms emitting enough methang per 100 acres to do some viable damage. Cows farting. Who would have known thats a big global warming problem? Ignorence is a major problem. If we stop emitting co2 and allow the earth to go on her normal path, we would know if shes warming and cooling. And the last ice age was a mighty long time ago.

 

[Montauklax]

Hey now this is a hot topic....get it Hot topic...anyways I thought here are a couple of interesting articles on the topic.


EarthSave International

pass the tofu anyone.

2008 International Conference on Climate Change * New York City * March 2-4, 2008

sounds like there is some discension in the ranks

Cool It - Bjørn Lomborg

Now lets apply a little cold hard math to the situation

In any event...I think all of the above is kind of ridiculous. Isn't conserving energy a national security issue? also if we are free market where capitalism is king should we still be subsidizing oil companies...finally isnt one of our key value propositions the idea that we continue to innovate in the area of alternative energy. Believe me when I tell you I have seen some very cool concepts being developed as an alternative to fossil fuels. with all that being said Im not sure whether we are causing global warming...I am convinced we continue to pollute our water and land which cant be good for us in the mid to long term.....i smell an opportunity:>)

Just a few things on the links you provided and some general thoughts.

1- What is wrong with a progressive environmentalism? I don't agree with that organization but as sportsmen shouldn't we be taking the lead on environmental issues? What would the greater Yellowstone region or the Sierras be now without progressive conservationists and environmentalist? Would Peregrines still be nesting on the palisades had a progressive thinker like Rachel Carson not written "silent spring". Just because the image portrayed for modern environmentalist is a tofu eating Birkenstock owner doesn't mean the ideas are flawed. Just look in any outdoor magazine. I chuckle when I read stories of "us versus the enviros," we as fly fishers are supposed to be on the leading edge of conservation.

I would imagine some of you are TU members spending time trying to save our brookies. TU has taken a firm position on climate change and the projected impacts on native salmonids, including the eastern brook trout.


2-The Heartland Institute is not a respected scientific body. Thus in terms of real scientific value is worthless. The Heartland institute is a think tank based on free-market philosophies. To cite that conference is laughable. Try looking at real meeting of the minds held by the UN or international Scientific bodies, then you can see a real scientific consensus.

3- Lomberg is undoubtedly a qualified scientist but his agenda is obvious. I see few other people in his field hawking books and looking for soundbites on cable news. Just like Al Gore, he's looking to make a name and some cash off a hot button issue. In my opinion, Gore was the worst thing to happen to the push for change and acknowledgment of climate change. He is far too political and polarizing of a figure.

Even if you don't agree that climate change is a serious issue can the changes proposed be so bad?
Wouldn't less reliance on foreign oil simplify our foreign policy and national saftey?

Wouldn't less acid rain in the ADK's, White and Green Mountains be lessened by burning less coal in the Ohio River Valley?

Would it hurt our economy to shift to more modern, and more sustainable sectors? We don't have all the answers but it never hurts to get the ball rolling.

Being a young man, I hope for the best but fear the worst. I look forward to the day when cynicism on this issue is an antiquated thought stubbornly held on by those who came before me.

 

[Trout Nazi]

I'm a scientist, therefore I have access to lots of peer-reviewed journals, and have heard arguments both for and against, and the contra arguments hold more water, in my opinion. You read and come up with your conclusions.

 

[Trout Nazi]

Agree 110%. We should reduce pollution by being conscientious human beings and good stewards of our lands, not as a reaction to scare tactics. Buy hey, whatever gets the job done.

 

[Trout Nazi]

Please, I saw that same special on the Nat Geo Channel last week too.

 

[Trout Nazi]

Lets not also forget the cyclic changes as the earth rotates on its axis every 150-200,000 years. A 1-2 degree tilt closer or further from the sun has huge consequences.

 

[Montauklax]

Please, I saw that same special on the Nat Geo Channel last week too.

What national geographic program do you speak of?

 

[Trout Nazi]

Guys, my whole intention here was to start an interesting conversation, something other than the "what I caught today" thread. Nice to go in a different direction from time to time. Also interesting to see everyones opinion on this as well.

Still like to look at pictures of big fish though.

 

[MACFLY]

Guys, my whole intention here was to start an interesting conversation, something other than the "what I caught today" thread. Nice to go in a different direction from time to time. Also interesting to see everyones opinion on this as well.

Still like to look at pictures of big fish though.

Happy to oblige on the big fish request

 

[MACFLY]

Just a few things on the links you provided and some general thoughts.

1- What is wrong with a progressive environmentalism? I don't agree with that organization but as sportsmen shouldn't we be taking the lead on environmental issues? What would the greater Yellowstone region or the Sierras be now without progressive conservationists and environmentalist? Would Peregrines still be nesting on the palisades had a progressive thinker like Rachel Carson not written "silent spring". Just because the image portrayed for modern environmentalist is a tofu eating Birkenstock owner doesn't mean the ideas are flawed. Just look in any outdoor magazine. I chuckle when I read stories of "us versus the enviros," we as fly fishers are supposed to be on the leading edge of conservation.

I would imagine some of you are TU members spending time trying to save our brookies. TU has taken a firm position on climate change and the projected impacts on native salmonids, including the eastern brook trout.


2-The Heartland Institute is not a respected scientific body. Thus in terms of real scientific value is worthless. The Heartland institute is a think tank based on free-market philosophies. To cite that conference is laughable. Try looking at real meeting of the minds held by the UN or international Scientific bodies, then you can see a real scientific consensus.

3- Lomberg is undoubtedly a qualified scientist but his agenda is obvious. I see few other people in his field hawking books and looking for soundbites on cable news. Just like Al Gore, he's looking to make a name and some cash off a hot button issue. In my opinion, Gore was the worst thing to happen to the push for change and acknowledgment of climate change. He is far too political and polarizing of a figure.

Even if you don't agree that climate change is a serious issue can the changes proposed be so bad?
Wouldn't less reliance on foreign oil simplify our foreign policy and national saftey?

Wouldn't less acid rain in the ADK's, White and Green Mountains be lessened by burning less coal in the Ohio River Valley?

Would it hurt our economy to shift to more modern, and more sustainable sectors? We don't have all the answers but it never hurts to get the ball rolling.

Being a young man, I hope for the best but fear the worst. I look forward to the day when cynicism on this issue is an antiquated thought stubbornly held on by those who came before me.

Well I posted the links to show a few different views. I think its irresponsible of anyone to suggest that they have all of the information for or against the argument...Truth is we dont know but ultimately I think it is wise to conserve energy and to develop alternative energy sources for the reason I mentioned in my post. One note on lomberg I think presents a unique angle and one based on some economic data that is difficult to refute.

As for the diversity of views, I am equally disturbed by the statement that Heartland is not a reputable group as I am by the statements I have heard that scientists from NOAA and other agencies were not allowed to provide their views.

I also see a great deal of economic opportunity to create alternative energy but we have to be realistic about how our economy functions today. Everything we do and yes I mean everything we do has a link directly or indirectly to fossil fuels. It is the engine that drives our economy (like it or not). How to get from that reality to the future reality in a responsible manner is the challenge.

 

[Trout Nazi]

Actually, it is a theory that CO2 is the cause of global warming. And if we are warming, how do you know its not a spike in the sine curve? The reality is that this is a complex system, that lasts over millenia, and we are trying to apply data that we have compiled over a very short period of time to a natural phenomena that progresses over eons.

 

[Joe D]

Actually, it is a theory that CO2 is the cause of global warming. And if we are warming, how do you know its not a spike in the sine curve? The reality is that this is a complex system, that lasts over millenia, and we are trying to apply data that we have compiled over a very short period of time to a natural phenomena that progresses over eons.

Exactly! How do you know? So it would be best to err on the side of caution.

 

[knightwatch]

Joe:

Problem is which side of caution do you err on? Consider that you now pay over 4$ per gallon for diesel around Hancock in spite of their being huge world reserves of oil and politically motivated types and media that won't let us drill for it!!

What does 4$ a gallon do to our economy? How is it that Al Gore left the white house with a net worth somewhere over 750K and just dumped 35 mill into hedge funds? Could they be influenced by carbon credits? Ebay stock? Who produced his bogus film that has helped to lead to this mess? All because of underwhelming evidence of CO2 and global warming.

I believe there was a thread on this site last year regarding the cost of a trip to fish the Delaware. What will it be this summer $100 plus? It is very important that we get this right and the sooner the better. Unfortunately, due to politics, media and greed we will probably not put the argument to rest for years.

Pete

 

[Joe D]

Joe:

Problem is which side of caution do you err on? Consider that you now pay over 4$ per gallon for diesel around Hancock in spite of their being huge world reserves of oil and politically motivated types and media that won't let us drill for it!!

What does 4$ a gallon do to our economy? How is it that Al Gore left the white house with a net worth somewhere over 750K and just dumped 35 mill into hedge funds? Could they be influenced by carbon credits? Ebay stock? Who produced his bogus film that has helped to lead to this mess? All because of underwhelming evidence of CO2 and global warming.

I believe there was a thread on this site last year regarding the cost of a trip to fish the Delaware. What will it be this summer $100 plus? It is very important that we get this right and the sooner the better. Unfortunately, due to politics, media and greed we will probably not put the argument to rest for years.

Pete

Good points Pete. I guess we should drill for oil anyplace it might be and not worry about the environment.

I never saw Al Gore's movie, but I'm sure he must have invented global warming sometime around the time he invented the internet.