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Fracking Fluid Leak Story

Don't worry this is a non-story.

1. They have not found anything yet.
2. There's lots of other things that pollute so one more doesn't matter.
3. We need the gas.
4. If we happen to concentrate the wealth in the area by ruining the tourism economy that spreads it around a bit and let a gas company and few land owners benefit, that's OK.
 
Don't worry this is a non-story.

1. They have not found anything yet.
2. There's lots of other things that pollute so one more doesn't matter.
3. We need the gas.
4. If we happen to concentrate the wealth in the area by ruining the tourism economy that spreads it around a bit and let a gas company and few land owners benefit, that's OK.

This is the dumbest statement yet posted on this or any other forum
They haven't found anything because the tests are still being run!
Its OK to pollute because there are other sources, are you kidding! If there are other sources they should be stopped also!!!
Yes we need the gas, but not if it is going to pollute the environment.
Gas can be grill in places where there isn't shale, such as Alaska.
OK, it allowable if some in an area get rich, but the rest of the of the folks get screwed, not getting gas money, but rely on the fishing season, tourist, canoe and kayaks can get screwed. Excellent position.
 
This is the dumbest statement yet posted on this or any other forum
They haven't found anything because the tests are still being run!
Its OK to pollute because there are other sources, are you kidding! If there are other sources they should be stopped also!!!
Yes we need the gas, but not if it is going to pollute the environment.
Gas can be grill in places where there isn't shale, such as Alaska.
OK, it allowable if some in an area get rich, but the rest of the of the folks get screwed, not getting gas money, but rely on the fishing season, tourist, canoe and kayaks can get screwed. Excellent position.

Rick,

I think he was being facetious...........:)
 
But that's not what the title of this thread said...

Jumping to conclusions... how trite.

DESPERATE for the negative...

TRY, I say TRY to be objective...

Oh i think we all know thats not going to be possible...where the hell are my socks:)
 
WOW DEP issued a notice of violation. WOW that piece of paper is really going to do a lot for the enviroment. IF DEP does issue a monetary fine it will be some idiotic figure for the press, then behind closed doors the gas company will come in with their attorney or better yet have the state rep call DEP and presto, the number will be reduced dramatically. I am speaking from 30 + years of working with them.
 
From the Sun Gazette story:

Spadoni said. "There doesn't appear to be anything you could do to keep it from seeping out of the ground."

How about not putting in the ground in the first place? If it's soap, I hope it's ivory. That's the only kind of soap you supposed to bath with in running water. 99.97% pure.

Fom the Gazette again:
"This past weekend's rainfall of nearly 2 inches may have provided adequate saturation to force this residual drilling soap into natural fissures that reached the surface."

So even though the well is 2,500 feet deep or so and well below surface water, two inches of rain at the wrong time can cause the drilling process substances to run-off and mix with surface water. I thought surface water was safe.

Another one:
"It usually disappears relatively quickly."

Can any of teachers on board explain the law of conservation of matter? My understanding is that nothing just goes away but I'm no teacher or physicist.
 
From the Sun Gazette story:

Spadoni said. "There doesn't appear to be anything you could do to keep it from seeping out of the ground."

How about not putting in the ground in the first place? If it's soap, I hope it's ivory. That's the only kind of soap you supposed to bath with in running water. 99.97% pure.

It's not a soap but a surfacant. As I understand it, when mixed with water it traps air and makes the water easier to lift out of the wellbore. I also believe that once upon a time, the industry used to use diesel fuel/kerosene for this purpose. But this seems to not be much of a danger and it breaks down quickly(we'll get to the wonders of "conservation of mass" later though). Here is some info:

SPECIFICATIONS
Color : Light brown
Pour point : -5°F
Flash Point : >200°F
Specific Gravity :1.057
Density : 8.91 lbs/gal
pH : 7.0 for a 5% Solution
Charge in solution : anionic

ADVANTAGES
Highly effective foaming agent
Foams fresh, brine or oil contaminated water Foams in the presence of oil contamination even in mixture of 3 parts oil to 1 part water
Half life over 4.5 minutes in fresh water
Half life of 1.5 minutes in solution of brine and 5% Penn Grade crude oil
High flash point
No hazardous labeling or shipping requirements


Highly biodegradable

Fom the Gazette again:
"This past weekend's rainfall of nearly 2 inches may have provided adequate saturation to force this residual drilling soap into natural fissures that reached the surface."

So even though the well is 2,500 feet deep or so and well below surface water, two inches of rain at the wrong time can cause the drilling process substances to run-off and mix with surface water. I thought surface water was safe.

I've got a question for you on this one. Do you mean ground water or surface water or both?

It is also hard to know what the explaination is, given that there are so many possibilities given the little info in the article. They said that the well was sealed. Where? Below the surface, at the surface or above grade? Is there ANY casing in the well bore? Had they pulled out the drilling mud before it was sealed and if so at what level? I find it hard to believe that there would be no casing in the well for the first few hundred feet through the water table, but I don't know Pennsylvania's rules. It was said that this came from the well bore, but could it have resulted from a spill of this stuff on the well pad? Is there a pit on site? Just too many questions.

Of course in NY, before any harmful chemicals(not that THIS was harmful) were put into the well bore, the well would be cased and sealed with cement to prevent any of the fluids from coming into contact with groundwater.

Now if we had all lobbied the DEC to mandate a closed loop system instead of trying to ban all drilling, many of the above mentioned issues could be greatly avoided in NY.

Another one:
"It usually disappears relatively quickly."

Can any of teachers on board explain the law of conservation of matter? My understanding is that nothing just goes away but I'm no teacher or physicist.

I'm going to assume that you are serious with this one.

Matter does just not "disappear" under most circumstances(except when it is changed into energy a la Einstein). BUT substances composed of matter can chemically change. Water for instance. Add a little high voltage and you end up with hydrogen and oxygen. Mix hydrochloric acid(a VERY corrosive acid) and sodium hydroxide (a very strong base(Drano)) and what do you get? Table salt and water. All the atoms one started with are still there(conserved) but they are now arranged differently. It is stated that this Airfoam stuff biodegrades quickly. I do not know what it breaks down into along the way though. Since it was said that it is used in hand soaps and cosmetics, well...

But let me say, that ONCE AGAIN, those that are opposed to drilling have snookered all of those who take the time to read these posts, into thinking that FRACKING and fracking fluids are and will be destroying the environment and turning the region into a desert. Since Fracking won't be taking place at this well site until sometime in the fall, the sensational title of this thread is, well, probably not true.

Hey Agust,I bet it won't take 30 million gallons to Frack it either.(even though it is five wells drilled from the same pad!) :)
 
Some of these surfacants are similar, not the same but similar to Simple Green, a dispersant to reduce surface tension on brine water.

Its either organic or polymer based, biodegradable and non-toxic.
 
Mr. Fanatic,

I was refering to surface water but I guess I could have been refering to to groundwater as well.

Tom
 
Chemical tests are not yet in, but it appears to be drilling soap not fracking fluid. Still you have to wonder, how that much soap (hundred of gallons a minute by most estimates) could be spilling from a well that was capped to prevent filling during the spring run off. It also begs the question how much fracking fluid leached into the surrounding shale during drilling and was not noticed when it leaked out, because it is not foaming up through the cracks in the shale and is just seeping into the ground.

BTW 5 wells are underway and according to the article they are about half way to the gas (2600 feet down and need to get to 5K where they are) . They have been at it for over a year and are likely to be at it another year, unless of course they are "forced" to shut down because of their blatant incompetence. Are these the same yahoos your planning to use FF, because if they are, you better get those socks to Macfly quick. Once the alpacas start drinking the kool aid you appear to have swallowed there is no telling what will happen. I guess you can harvest one last batch of wool prior to sending the hides to be tanned.

I hope you got paid well for selling out. I also fervently hope nothing bad happens and that you never have to learn to sleep with knowing one of your neighbors kids get diagnosed with something nasty. As you stated the chances of something bad happening are low, but the consequences are so bad that I find the risk to be unacceptable.

Agust
 
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Chemical tests are not yet in, but it appears to be drilling soap not fracking fluid. Still you have to wonder, how that much soap (hundred of gallons a minute by most estimates) could be spilling from a well that was capped to prevent filling during the spring run off. It also begs the question how much fracking fluid leached into the surrounding shale during drilling and was not noticed when it leaked out, because it is not foaming up through the cracks in the shale and is just seeping into the ground.

BTW 5 wells are underway and according to the article they are about half way to the gas (2600 feet down and need to get to 5K where they are) . They have been at it for over a year and are likely to be at it another year, unless of course they are "forced" to shut down because of their blatant incompetence. Are these the same yahoos your planning to use FF, because if they are, you better get those socks to Macfly quick. Once the alpacas start drinking the kool aid you appear to have swallowed there is no telling what will happen. I guess you can harvest one last batch of wool prior to sending the hides to be tanned.

I hope you got paid well for selling out. I also fervently hope nothing bad happens and that you never have to learn to sleep with knowing one of your neighbors kids get diagnosed with something nasty. As you stated the chances of something bad happening are low, but the consequences are so bad that I find the risk to be unacceptable.

Agust


Agust I realize you are not interested in being objective. Its evidenced by the constant comments about selling out etc..(BTW are you related to catskill mountain man). In any event it has been noted that the Fracking process has not started at this well site yet so while i realize you are not objective how being a bit more thoughtful in your statements. You started this thread with a title that was completely misleading and you continue to rant with your latest post. Kind of childish. You probably leached more crap into our waterways with whatever you put on your lawn with the last storm so once again take a look at your own actions before pointing the finger at others with misinformed and misleading statements...Other than that have a nice weekend:down:
 
Perhaps many of us are ignorant. I for one don't make a big distinction between the different sources of chemicals leaking/spilling from a site where fracing is happening/going to happen/was happening. I don't care if it came out of the ground, spilled from truck, overflowed from a containment pond, or spilled out of the coffee machine. The main point I take from this particular episode is that if there was no fracing at this site nothing would be mixing with the surface and ground water, be it soap, acid, or Kool-Aid.

btw, Soap is not an environmentally friendly substance. just ask your local dry cleaner or car wash.

And to the pro fracing people a bit of advice: Stop using the argument that other people pollute so it's OK to add another source. Maybe Agust fertilizes his lawn maybe he doesn't. That does not make anything else right or wrong. You'll never convince anyone with that line of thought.

I've learned quite a bit reading some of these threads and I don't have the same opinion as when i first heard about it but the "everyone else is doing something bad" argument makes you sound foolish and diminishes anything legitimate you might have to say.
 
And to the pro fracing people a bit of advice: Stop using the argument that other people pollute so it's OK to add another source. Maybe Agust fertilizes his lawn maybe he doesn't. That does not make anything else right or wrong. You'll never convince anyone with that line of thought.

I think you make the mistake of taking the argument at face value(as if we would really argue "what's ONE more source of pollution when we have so many") and not for the sarcastic pointing out of hypocrisy that is intended. You know, pointing out that many of the antis are "the pot calling the kettle black"," people in glass houses throwing stones", and saying "do as I say, not as I do", etc. Until one is willing to "put up" by ceasing damaging the environment either tangentially or directly with the products one uses or the lifestyle choices one makes, I say one should be careful about criticizing others...

just sayin'...
 
Perhaps many of us are ignorant. I for one don't make a big distinction between the different sources of chemicals leaking/spilling from a site where fracing is happening/going to happen/was happening. I don't care if it came out of the ground, spilled from truck, overflowed from a containment pond, or spilled out of the coffee machine. The main point I take from this particular episode is that if there was no fracing at this site nothing would be mixing with the surface and ground water, be it soap, acid, or Kool-Aid.

btw, Soap is not an environmentally friendly substance. just ask your local dry cleaner or car wash.

And to the pro fracing people a bit of advice: Stop using the argument that other people pollute so it's OK to add another source. Maybe Agust fertilizes his lawn maybe he doesn't. That does not make anything else right or wrong. You'll never convince anyone with that line of thought.

I've learned quite a bit reading some of these threads and I don't have the same opinion as when i first heard about it but the "everyone else is doing something bad" argument makes you sound foolish and diminishes anything legitimate you might have to say.

If I was making the argument that it was right to do that then I would say it. If you look at what I have posted I have made it clear that we need to regulate gas drilling. Never said anything other than that. I just dont agree with no drilling and not in my backyard mentality. What I did say and fervently believe is that it is hypocritical to suggest that folks like FF and kilgour are sell outs when you know darn well that many of the people making these accusations are polluting themselves as well as wasting energy. Its completely legitimate to call folks out on this point in light especially if they are going to continue to make misleading statements such as the title of this thread. I do however sincerely wish you all a great weekend
 
Chemical tests are not yet in, but it appears to be drilling soap not fracking fluid. Still you have to wonder, how that much soap (hundred of gallons a minute by most estimates) could be spilling from a well that was capped to prevent filling during the spring run off. It also begs the question how much fracking fluid leached into the surrounding shale during drilling and was not noticed when it leaked out, because it is not foaming up through the cracks in the shale and is just seeping into the ground.

You start this with "it appears to be drilling soap not fracking fluid" and then write "also begs the question how much fracking fluid leached into the surrounding shale during drilling and was not noticed when it leaked out, because it is not foaming up through the cracks "....?

There is NO FRACKING FLUID in the well bore until they FRACK IT. That will take place AFTER they finish drilling. It was stated that fracking would happen in the fall.

their blatant incompetence. Are these the same yahoos your planning to use FF, because if they are, you better get those socks to Macfly quick. Once the alpacas start drinking the kool aid you appear to have swallowed there is no telling what will happen. I guess you can harvest one last batch of wool prior to sending the hides to be tanned.

I have no plans to "use" anyone at the moment...

Do you KNOW that it was "their blatant incompetence" that caused this? A short while ago you also KNEW it was Frack fluid. A while back you also knew it took 30-45 million gallons of water to Frack a well...

I know I am biased, but it seems as if it might be YOU who has had one to many kool aids. I don't know how it is possible for you to be so sure that Gas drilling and fracking in particular will kill us all, when even the the EPA has to spend millions over a couple of years to answer that question.

Of course, my alpacas will be just fine. In fact, I'll guarantee it. I've got years and years and years of fiber collection ahead of me. Thanks for your concern though. If you'd like a tanned alpaca hide, I can get you the number of a guy in Peru...

I hope you got paid well for selling out. I also fervently hope nothing bad happens and that you never have to learn to sleep with knowing one of your neighbors kids get diagnosed with something nasty. As you stated the chances of something bad happening are low, but the consequences are so bad that I find the risk to be unacceptable.

Agust

I've been paid NOTHING(one more piece of evidence to doubt your ability to reason this one out). AND even if I had been paid, how would it be "selling out" if I believe that NO HARM will come?
The risks of WHAT are unacceptable? Can you point to ANY proof(I did not even use the word scientific)that fracking, which has been going on for decades, causes unacceptable risks of anything?
 
By the way, the title to the thread came from the story that first leaked the news. They cited a case of "possible frack fluid leaking from a gas well drilling operation" . There is no doubt that the spill is from a gas well, the actual contents at the time the article was posted were unknown. And if you bother to read the text I supplied it indicated "possible frack fluid leak".

In looking back I don't recall ever saying that drilling for gas should be outlawed. I have serious issues with using the drinking supply water, that folks have been fighting to protect for over 50 years to do the drilling. I have serious issues with discharging the fluids, even after treatment into the drink water that 20 million people depend on. I have very serious issues with the many, many failures that have occurred in other areas while drilling for gas.

Telling me no to worry because they won't make the same mistakes here, is like telling me that this new politician honest not like the lying SOB he replaced. Extractive industries have a long history of only doing what is minimally required, they also have a track record of rushing to begin extraction before new rules "increase their costs".

The gas has been there a very long time, it can wait until the extraction process is safe. Rushing to start the process does not make it safer, and does increase the risk.

And Mac, I'm sorry you feel my terming it "selling out" is offensive. What term is appropriate for taking money from a company that puts the drinking water of 20 million people at risk? What is the proper title for a person willing to risk the health of his neighbors children for profit?

By the way claiming there is no risk and it is safe, when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary is much more offensive if not outright disingenuous.

Agust
 
By the way, the title to the thread came from the story that first leaked the news. They cited a case of "possible frack fluid leaking from a gas well drilling operation" . There is no doubt that the spill is from a gas well, the actual contents at the time the article was posted were unknown. And if you bother to read the text I supplied it indicated "possible frack fluid leak".

In looking back I don't recall ever saying that drilling for gas should be outlawed. I have serious issues with using the drinking supply water, that folks have been fighting to protect for over 50 years to do the drilling. I have serious issues with discharging the fluids, even after treatment into the drink water that 20 million people depend on. I have very serious issues with the many, many failures that have occurred in other areas while drilling for gas.

Telling me no to worry because they won't make the same mistakes here, is like telling me that this new politician honest not like the lying SOB he replaced. Extractive industries have a long history of only doing what is minimally required, they also have a track record of rushing to begin extraction before new rules "increase their costs".

The gas has been there a very long time, it can wait until the extraction process is safe. Rushing to start the process does not make it safer, and does increase the risk.

And Mac, I'm sorry you feel my terming it "selling out" is offensive. What term is appropriate for taking money from a company that puts the drinking water of 20 million people at risk? What is the proper title for a person willing to risk the health of his neighbors children for profit?

By the way claiming there is no risk and it is safe, when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary is much more offensive if not outright disingenuous.

Agust

Agust you know full well the intent of posting something like this so you reference the title came from somewhere else but you posted and you did so without understanding the specific issue. you went on to suggest that they wont know if fracking fluid is leaking rather than reading the article to fully understand what was going on.

Please point to a time when I ever said there was no risk. Has not happened. Point to evidence where it states that drilling for gas will put 20 million people at risk. I dont believe FF or Kilgour feel any differently than I do. You continue to demonize folks on some holier than though rant. BTW I notices you didnt comment about your own waste and polluting which is typical.
 
I think you make the mistake of taking the argument at face value(as if we would really argue "what's ONE more source of pollution when we have so many") and not for the sarcastic pointing out of hypocrisy that is intended. You know, pointing out that many of the antis are "the pot calling the kettle black"," people in glass houses throwing stones", and saying "do as I say, not as I do", etc. Until one is willing to "put up" by ceasing damaging the environment either tangentially or directly with the products one uses or the lifestyle choices one makes, I say one should be careful about criticizing others...

just sayin'...


say it 3 times fast:)
 
BTW I notices you didnt comment about your own waste and polluting which is typical.

I pollute, I sin and I am not perfect. I do however, try and minimize how much I pollute, I try to minimize the harm I do to others and I attempt to rectify my faults when I recognize them. If your argument is that because I drive a car and may have smoked a joint in my misspent youth makes it acceptable to destroy the Delaware river, I think perhaps you need to reassess you thinking. Killing a deer for food is not equivalent to flying an airplane into a skyscraper, both have consequences and some folks find both evil but most recognize the difference in scale.

I've been paid NOTHING(one more piece of evidence to doubt your ability to reason this one out). AND even if I had been paid, how would it be "selling out" if I believe that NO HARM will come?
The risks of WHAT are unacceptable? Can you point to ANY proof(I did not even use the word scientific)that fracking, which has been going on for decades, causes unacceptable risks of anything?

By your reasoning if a junkie believes it is acceptable to steal to support his addiction, he is justified in sticking a gun into the face of the liquor store clerk. Since Bernie Madhoff earned billions of profit for his friends and believed it was legal, he was just a brilliant misunderstood financial genius. you believe there is no risk, you believe the drilling operations are safe. I believe you are blinded by an opportunity to earn money at the expense of others, the fact that you have not yet cashed in not withstanding.

As to proof that gas drilling has risks: lets list a couple:

Rueters 8/27/2009 : "The Environmental Protection Agency found chemicals that researchers say may cause illnesses including cancer, kidney failure, anemia and fertility problems in water from 11 of 39 wells tested around the Wyoming town of Pavillion in March and May this year. "
U.S. finds water polluted near gas-drilling sites | Reuters

Cornell January - 2009 "Hundreds of water wells polluted with hydrocarbons have been discovered in and around natural gas drilling sites in Wyoming and Colorado. Some wells have undergone explosions and other strange phenomena. Hydraulic Fracturing is being done to these wells, although the jury is out if this is causing all of the problems. " (Note no proof but when your well goes bad, and there is anew gas well being drilled the risk is real. - Agust)
Polluted Water Wells Out West | Environmental Impacts of Gas Well Drilling

For more data google "Contaminated water gas drilling" keep in mind that when someones well goes bad, they can seldom "prove" it was the well drilled two miles away. And in poor depressed areas, they seldom have the means to hire geologists and expert witnesses that deep pocketed gas companies hire.

The time to enact safeguards to prevent disasters is now, before the disaster happens. Closing the barn door after the wells are polluted and te river dead, is too late. There is plenty of gas, and lots of money to be made, we need to ensure that the water for fishing, canoeing and drinking remains safe. I'm sorry it bothers you so much, but quite frankly I don't care. Doing the right thing is still worth doing, even if you do not see it.

Agust
 
I pollute, I sin and I am not perfect. I do however, try and minimize how much I pollute, I try to minimize the harm I do to others and I attempt to rectify my faults when I recognize them. If your argument is that because I drive a car and may have smoked a joint in my misspent youth makes it acceptable to destroy the Delaware river, I think perhaps you need to reassess you thinking. Killing a deer for food is not equivalent to flying an airplane into a skyscraper, both have consequences and some folks find both evil but most recognize the difference in scale.



By your reasoning if a junkie believes it is acceptable to steal to support his addiction, he is justified in sticking a gun into the face of the liquor store clerk. Since Bernie Madhoff earned billions of profit for his friends and believed it was legal, he was just a brilliant misunderstood financial genius. you believe there is no risk, you believe the drilling operations are safe. I believe you are blinded by an opportunity to earn money at the expense of others, the fact that you have not yet cashed in not withstanding.

As to proof that gas drilling has risks: lets list a couple:

Rueters 8/27/2009 : "The Environmental Protection Agency found chemicals that researchers say may cause illnesses including cancer, kidney failure, anemia and fertility problems in water from 11 of 39 wells tested around the Wyoming town of Pavillion in March and May this year. "
U.S. finds water polluted near gas-drilling sites | Reuters

Cornell January - 2009 "Hundreds of water wells polluted with hydrocarbons have been discovered in and around natural gas drilling sites in Wyoming and Colorado. Some wells have undergone explosions and other strange phenomena. Hydraulic Fracturing is being done to these wells, although the jury is out if this is causing all of the problems. " (Note no proof but when your well goes bad, and there is anew gas well being drilled the risk is real. - Agust)
Polluted Water Wells Out West | Environmental Impacts of Gas Well Drilling

For more data google "Contaminated water gas drilling" keep in mind that when someones well goes bad, they can seldom "prove" it was the well drilled two miles away. And in poor depressed areas, they seldom have the means to hire geologists and expert witnesses that deep pocketed gas companies hire.

The time to enact safeguards to prevent disasters is now, before the disaster happens. Closing the barn door after the wells are polluted and te river dead, is too late. There is plenty of gas, and lots of money to be made, we need to ensure that the water for fishing, canoeing and drinking remains safe. I'm sorry it bothers you so much, but quite frankly I don't care. Doing the right thing is still worth doing, even if you do not see it.

Agust

In the 60s and 70s DDT was thought to be the most lethal toxic agent killing the eggs of the bald eagle by thinning out the shell. DDT gets banned..Unfortunately for millions of folks over in Africa this turned out to be not such a good thing. See DDT was very effective at wiping out mosquito larvae. Of course since its banned it can be used. Subsequently lots of african children and adults died. if you had your way drilling would never happen. At least admit your real view on the issue.

The post you reference uses words like may cause or may cause that. Hey you may get hit by a car tomorrow or you may choke on that meatball you shove down your mouth. You crack me up. If the wells leak fix em, regulate them, I dont have a flippin problem with regulation .I have a problem with hypocrits and yes that is what you are. You try not to pollute..give me a break Agust. you are so full of it with this rant. You post an article you dont know the facts on. You continue to misrepresent the issue in the article and you continue to cast folks that have a different opinion on the matter as somehow now caring about the children. So like I said clean up your own mess (dont just try) then maybe you can get on your soap box and preach to others.
 
Once again the substance of the post is getting mostly ignored, while we focus on how a local news agent headlined it (and Agust posted it)...
...quick, if someone complains about over-reaction then we don't have to look at the real issue, the leak...

Chemicals or 'A CHEMICAL' (possibly a surfactant) that is suspected to be related to gas drilling operations is leaking into the environment. Presumably this leak was accidental.

Agreed?

Now, let's stop calling it SOAP in an effort to minimize the issue and make it seem like the antis are crying about the sky falling. It's NOT SOAP. (It can be used as a component of 'soap'.)

Bottom line, it's not supposed to be there. It's simply unacceptable that it is there.

I think it's time to bring back my friend...


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