Big Flatbrook Fly Fishing Club

[Rusty Spinner]

So why not get 15-20 fly fishers together and buy an existing house/cabin in the area with a nice fireplace, load the bedrooms with bunk beds, put the minimum down-payment and share the monthly expenses, and help improve and fish the Flatbook and the other streams in the area?

Maybe a pipe dream, but my wife is making a lot of noise about moving to Central or Southern NJ, but the NW Corner of the State has been in my blood since I was a young teen and it would be great to have a lodge/clubhouse to return to.

Pat - I'd be happy to negotiate this real estate transaction on behalf of the newly forming club if you'd agree to leave behind your rods and tying gear?

I do agree that the Flatbrook is seeing a lot of otters, but let's not go so far as to say they are dangerous. And you don't want to get caught with a handgun, Kronk, because in NJ that is certain jail time! Forget shooting harmless otters, just having a hand gun on your person without a concealed carry permit is a bad idea. Otters are highly inquisitive. The behavior you described is one of curiosity and not of aggression. If you carry the gun for bears, I highly recommend you switch to pepper spray.

 

[Kronk]

Pat - I'd be happy to negotiate this real estate transaction on behalf of the newly forming club if you'd agree to leave behind your rods and tying gear?

I do agree that the Flatbrook is seeing a lot of otters, but let's not go so far as to say they are dangerous. And you don't want to get caught with a handgun, Kronk, because in NJ that is certain jail time! Forget shooting harmless otters, just having a hand gun on your person without a concealed carry permit is a bad idea. Otters are highly inquisitive. The behavior you described is one of curiosity and not of aggression. If you carry the gun for bears, I highly recommend you switch to pepper spray.

I Have a permit to carry within all 50 States and would not shoot the otters unless I was in danger of being bitten...Kronk

 

[Ryan R]

Last year while fishing a pool on the Flat 3 otters harassed me while I was fishing. This was half hour before first light. They kept sticking their heads out of the water cackling or grunting what ever they do.I did have a handgun with me. If they got any more agressive They would have been floating away.My initial encounter with them was way too close.They Obviously did not want me there.I wish I could shoot them next time.:down:

Run, run, the otters are attacking. Good grief, is some surburbanite or city slicker now scared of otters? Might be better off sticking to taking your kids to the Fish Education Pond for the Pequest Open House- the woods are just being overrun with dangerous maneating creatures now. OK, they're a member of the weasel family but c'mon, you almost felt threatened enough by them that you might need to shoot them? Are you even sure they were otters and not just a few of the many muskrats along the BFB, particularly in the fly-fishing section? Unfortunately I guess for me I just haven't seen otters up there. I've seen muskrat, beaver, and mink up along the BFB, would like to see an otter or two, that would be neat.

 

[emoussa]

while fishing yesterday at the KLG i saw a beaver running along the banks, i tried snapping a shot of it, but is it possible there are otters there too? i heard beavers make water taste great so i drank 2 bottles of river water. mmm beaver fever.

I have seen otters both at the KLG and upstream along vernoy this past fall. I spoke to an angler who also saw the otter and he told me there was a otter farm along the south branch at one point and some had escaped.

 

[blue dun]

while fishing yesterday at the KLG i saw a beaver running along the banks, i tried snapping a shot of it, but is it possible there are otters there too? i heard beavers make water taste great so i drank 2 bottles of river water. mmm beaver fever.

Beavers sometimes try to chase you out of their territory. Once while duck hunting I had one coming up to the water surface and slapping his tail on the water.

 

[blue dun]

I Have a permit to carry within all 50 States and would not shoot the otters unless I was in danger of being bitten...Kronk

While you may have a permit to carry I wouldn't advertise the fact you are carrying a hand gun while fishing on a public forum. The next thing you know DFW CO's are going to be searching fishermen for firearms as a result.

 

[sh4ne87]

Beavers sometimes try to chase you out of their territory. Once while duck hunting I had one coming up to the water surface and slapping his tail on the water.

yea, come to think of it tho it was most likely an otter because this thing was scooting along the bank at a pretty good clip. it was right above the lower parking lot.

 

[Simms]

I have seen otters both at the KLG and upstream along vernoy this past fall. I spoke to an angler who also saw the otter and he told me there was a otter farm along the south branch at one point and some had escaped.

Most likely it was a MINK. not an otter. I see MINKS everytime im down there.

 

[sh4ne87]

correct, just google imaged a mink and that is exactly what it was. i knew you could be useful for something chris.

 

[sheisty]

Taking 1 or 2 fish is different from loading a stringer every time out. Perhaps not on the BFB but I have seen plenty of chain stringer fly fishermen. I would vote for size and creel qty limits 365 days a year on big stretches of water. Even if you do have a small section of C&R do you forget fish swim? I’m not a fan of FFO, but on such tiny stretches of water who really cares? BFB boundaries confuse me all the time. I hike and fish all the time its bothersome to worry about what rod to bring. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Taking 1 or 2 fish is different from loading a stringer every time out. Perhaps not on the BFB but I have seen plenty of chain stringer fly fishermen. I would vote for size and creel qty limits 365 days a year on big stretches of water. Even if you do have a small section of C&R do you forget fish swim? I’m not a fan of FFO, but on such tiny stretches of water who really cares? BFB boundaries confuse me all the time. I hike and fish all the time its bothersome to worry about what rod to bring. Just my 2 cents.

This Blewett tract is FF only already, so nothing would change in that regard. Spin fishermen will have less water to fish within this new (proposed) TCA than fly anglers just as they do now under general regs.

 

[Ryan R]

In principle I like the idea. However $100 dues seem a little pricey. In addition to that stocking a stream open to the public where anyone can legally keep fish is like throwing money in the water.fficeffice" /><O></O>
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Also with regard to throwing money in the water: It used to be in the latter part of May and June lots of stocked fish were visible in the BFB flyfishing area because most fly fishermen practice catch & release. The last few years that hasn't been the case. In that period of time I have often seen otters there. In 50 years of hunting and fishing I have never seen an otter until the last few years. I believe the otter population has exploded and they are feasting on stocked trout. The DFW needs to allow trappers to take more than one otter a year to remedy the situation. Until they do anyone stocking trout, including the DFW, is "throwing money in the water

I disagree with that statement. For example, the Lehigh River Stocking Association rebuilt most of the trout fishery on the Lehigh River directly through its own mmebership dues and stocking the river entirely in open public water. They simply dedicated themselves to rasing money to stock fish and encourage Lehigh River anglers to become members and encurage all to practice C&R or at least selective harvest. By all accounts, they have greatly succeeded in building a remarkable trout fishery that continues to get better each season. If dedicate members stocked 5-7 inch fishon a put & grow basis into the BFB, within a few years I almost guarantee you there would be a notable improvement for anglers to enjoy. That effort and result would likely result in an increase in membership

 

[Ryan R]

This Blewett tract is FF only already, so nothing would change in that regard. Spin fishermen will have less water to fish within this new (proposed) TCA than fly anglers just as they do now under general regs.

Uh, don't you mean spin anglers will have more water to fish under the proposed TCA?

 

[sheisty]

This Blewett tract is FF only already, so nothing would change in that regard. Spin fishermen will have less water to fish within this new (proposed) TCA than fly anglers just as they do now under general regs.

Hey Brian,

How much more FFO water in miles will there be under the new proposal? I know Blewett is FFO and I remember reading debates about if it could ever be anything but that because of previous landowners requests or something like that.

 

[Ryan R]

Hey Brian,

How much more FFO water in miles will there be under the new proposal? I know Blewett is FFO and I remember reading debates about if it could ever be anything but that because of previous landowners requests or something like that.

There won't be any new FFO miles, the FFO area will actually be reduced because the portion that would fall under TCA would be open to artificial lures as well as flies, like all other TCAs. The only thing about the Blewitt Tract (which isn't that big) is that it is the only part of the exisiting FFO area that has no 9-day "general regs" exception at the beginning of the season. The Blewitt is FFO during the entire season that's all.

 

[NJpatbee]

The Flatbrook fly fishing only stretch would be reduced from 4 miles to 3 miles, with the last .5 mile of the 3 (Blewett Tract) managed with the YRTCA limit of 1 fish >15" per day. The lower 1 mile of FFO water would be managed as artificials only (flies and lures) with the 1 fish >15" limit. Spin fishermen will now have access to this piece of water 365 days/year instead of the current 9 days. Also, for the first time a section of the Flatbrook (1.5 miles) will be managed as something other than put-and-take.

 

[Ryan R]

The Flatbrook fly fishing only stretch would be reduced from 4 miles to 3 miles, with the last .5 mile of the 3 (Blewett Tract) managed with the YRTCA limit of 1 fish >15" per day. The lower 1 mile of the current 4 miles of FFO water would be managed as artificials only (flies and lures) with the TCA's 1 fish >15" limit. Spin fishermen will now have access to this piece of water 365 days/year instead of the current 9 days. Also, for the first time a section of the Flatbrook (1.5 miles) will be managed as something other than put-and-take.

So we're all clear: It would still be FFO (with the 9-day exception) from the 206 Bridge downstream to the "top" of the Blewitt Tract. If you ask me, while it may not be perfect in every fly anglers mind it's still a win-win situation for both fly anglers and conservation-minded spin anglers, each of who would like to see some sort of creel limit protection for what could be another top quality year-round fishery.

But it does highlight the point some of us have made, that if they can manage the Blewitt Tract still as FFO but now with YRTCA creel limits, it wouldn't be that difficult to manage the rest of the FFO area that way as well. Lets get this in place at least on the Blewitt Tract, let it work for a few years and then the precedent will be set for expanding the creel limit regs upstream throughout the remaining FFO area. Hell the Division can even keep the damned 9-day goonfest if need be, if they at least put creel regs on the FFO area for the rest of the year.

 

[sheisty]

I like it, something a little different with great potential.

 

[NJpatbee]

So we're all clear. It would still be FFO (with the 9-day exception) from the 206 Bridge downstream to the "top" of the Blewitt Tract. If you ask me, while it may not be perfect in every fly anglers mind it's still a win-win situation for both fly anglers and conservation-minded spin anglers, each of who would like to see some sort of creel limit protection for what could be another top quality year-round fishery.

But it does highlight the point some of us have made, that if they can manage the Blewitt Tract still as FFO but now with YRTCA creel limits, it wouldn't be that difficult to manage the rest of the FFO area that way as well. Lets get this in place at least on the Blewitt Tract, let it work for a few years and then the precedent will be set for expanding the creel limit regs upstream throughout the remaining FFO area. Hell the Division can even keep the damned 9-day goonfest if need be, if they at least put creel regs on the FFO area for the rest of the year.

Thanks for clarifying the boundary. There is quite a bit of work to be done to get this included in the 2012 Fish Code, but I believe it can happen. We (NJTU) will be presenting at the Susssex County Federation of Sportmen Clubs tonight in an effort to gain support for the proposal.

 

[Ryan R]

Thanks for clarifying the boundary. There is quite a bit of work to be done to get this included in the 2012 Fish Code, but I believe it can happen. We (NJTU) will be presenting at the Susssex County Federation of Sportmen Clubs tonight in an effort to gain support for the proposal.

Good luck, I hope it gains support from the federation. I mean I can't see why it shouldn't since you would have a little of everything AND still maintain the majority(2.5 miles) of what exists now as status quo. The only change to the Blewitt is a creel reg and now spin anglers would have access to the lower 1.5 miles of that water now year-round instead of just 9 days- and I know that many of them have coveted gaining access to "what the fly guys have." If they're intelligent about it, it would be hard for them not to support it.

 

[porterskill]

the stocking part will be ineffective,many of the fish move too far.

 

[danme]

the stocking part will be ineffective,many of the fish move too far.

I beg to differ with you porterskill. Bows and Brookies will move out' especially Rainbows (They search for BIG WATER) Brown Trout on the other hand will pretty much stay put within 1/2 mile of where they were stocked --- So STOCK ONLY BROWN TROUT make it NO KILL FF ONLY and in a few years it will be a GREAT 20 inch plus stretch of river.

Yes you will have some mortality dut to natural predation, deeply hooked fish, and just plain die off --- BUT --- It will balance out and the STROMG will survive to produce an awesome fishery.

Peace and Tight Lines

Dan

:give-the-finger::give-the-finger:

 

[porterskill]

hatchery trout stocked in streams last an average of 3 months and they can move at least 2 miles in one day.you are dreaming about the 20" trout even if no one ever fished it again.

 

[danme]

hatchery trout stocked in streams last an average of 3 months and they can move at least 2 miles in one day.you are dreaming about the 20" trout even if no one ever fished it again.

If you say so!!!!! I must be dumb after 30 plus years of Fly Fishing

 

[porterskill]

montana has not stocked their streams since about 1993 and they now have more and larger trout in them.they had less and smaller trout until the stocking stopped.this does not apply to still water fisheries.this was done and studied by dick vincent for the state of montana and the results we great.i was lucky enough to have fished in montana the first year they had not stocked the streams and it was great.

 

[danme]

montana has not stocked their streams since about 1993 and they now have more and larger trout in them.they had less and smaller trout until the stocking stopped.this does not apply to still water fisheries.this was done and studied by dick vincent for the state of montana and the results we great.i was lucky enough to have fished in montana the first year they had not stocked the streams and it was great.

And this has to do with WHAT?? We were discussing the MOVEMENT of BROWN TROUT!!! I agree that Stocking F****S up the Gene pool and can limit Growth potential --- So Please Whats your point ?

 

[sh4ne87]

Fished for approximately 9 hours today hopping around the county from the musky to van campens then finally stopped at the flat brook to hit up some of my favorite runs.

I was blessed to hook into a beauty near the end of the day. Had a hares ear and prince on and they have been productive as always.

Anyway, i hooked into this fish and knew it was not a little 8 incher. Drag started screaming and rod was doubled over. This biggen managed to wrap itself under a rock, so i had to wade into the middle and untangle it from its snag. While doing this i was praying i would not lose the fish due to the slack that was sure ensue from popping it loose.

10-15 minutes later it tired and i finally could manage it. I usually always carry my camera on me but i forgot it in the car. :crap: i whipped out my cell at snapped 2 shots before i dropped it in the water... After that awesome experience i ran to the car and put the heat on and my phone up to it and it works! so i can post the pics. sorry about the quality.

 

[NJpatbee]

hatchery trout stocked in streams last an average of 3 months and they can move at least 2 miles in one day.you are dreaming about the 20" trout even if no one ever fished it again.

I am guessing you're still talking about the Flabrook - The most recent NJF&W electro-fishing of 75 meters of the Blewett Tract came up with a 16" and an 18" wild brown trout, so a 20" wild trout is not out of the question (but would certainly be an exception), and the "put and grow" approach has also worked in other waters. Let's just hope we have a chance to try these theories with a YRTCA stretch!

The Sussex County Federation meeting went well, and Rick Axt, the NJ TU Council Chairman, did an excellent job of presenting the proposal. My job was backing Rick up as a representative of FSB North Jersey TU Chapter (we are members of the Sussex County Federation). Out of the dozen or so attendees in addition to the officers, one person was vocally opposed to it because of the 1 fish >15" limit, several members voiced support for the proposal, and the rest appeared mildly interested. After a Q&A period the attendees were asked to take it back to their clubs for their opinion. Either myself or someone else from FSB North Jersey TU will be there in May in the event of further discussion and to cast a vote in favor of the proposal if one is taken.

 

[Rusty Spinner]

Also, our FSB/North Jersey TU chapter is considering adding significant habitat enhancements to this stretch if the folks at National Parks allow us to do so to help add lots of new holding water.

On the stocked fish and whether or not they leave the water they were stocked in, I can only tell you that I have been on most of the NJ fishing club waters and they all hold their trout well wherever there is good holding features. I'm talking about stocking fish in the 12"- 18" range that are now well into the mid to upper 20" range after a few years. If you practice C&R and have ample primes lies and good secondary lies, trout will stay around so long as water temps are cool enough and there is food. Many clubs feed their fish, some daily (or more) and some only a few times a week, but that does seem to help most clubs (but not all feed and still have good populations).

 

[Ryan R]

When it comes to trout stocking policies, both PA and NJ are going about it all wrong. In waters capable of holding trout year round but perhaps with limited wild trout spawning habitat the emphasis should not be on stocking catchable size trout but rather stocking on a put & grow basis. I don't mean with 2-4 inch fingerlings either, perhaps 5-7 inch fish. Model the creel regs similar to when the striper fishery was "rebuilt" by adjusting the minimum legth up each year to protect the growing trout and assure large #s attain the desired size. Michigan stocked its last catchable size trout in 1965 and I believe this is the similar model they followed on many rivers. And as was mentioned Montana stocked its last trout, period, in 1993.