Hi, I'm new to this forum. I spent quite a bit on time on it yesterday & today researching waders... lots of great info and it was very helpfull.
I'm getting ready to buy a pair and could use some help... haven't bought waders in 15yrs and I'm just getting back into fly fishing.

My first pick is Orvis Tailwaters XT Bootfoots. I really didn't see any threads about these only 3 or 4 short comments under other wader threads. I'd really appreciate your thoughts on these if you have used them for any length of time. I'd like to know how they hold up. I tried a pair on at Gander Mt and they felt great.

Also wanted to inquire about Simms G3 stocking foot waders... from what I saw in my searches it seems like the quality of these have been going down hill... and so has Simms service... is that true? Should I eliminate these from my short list or am I getting a lopsided picture?

Another option I'm considering are the Orvis Silver Labels (and I saw some bad feedback on these as well) along with Orvis Easy-On Brogue wading boots. Any comments on these would be helpfull. Thanks.

First ... welcome to NEFF

Concerning your waders;

Think LL BEAN.

JM,

A few things to note...

Orvis.com said:

<CENTER>The Orvis 100% Satisfaction Guarantee:</CENTER><CENTER>For 150 years, we have offered the strongest return policy in the business. We will refund your money on any purchase that isn't 100% satisfactory. Anytime, for any reason. It's that simple. </CENTER>

Click to expand...

Does not apply to waders. Sure it says any purchase, any time, any reason, but they modify it at will. If you search the site for Orvis Waders, you can see the hell they put a few people through. Not only that, you'll see the responses from Orvis themselves! Just for the record, I typically like using Orvis products and for the most part of it, I think their products are well made. I don't agree with their 100% Satisfaction Guarantee because it's just not true. That's false advertising if you ask me.


That should actually read, "The Orvis 50/50 Satisfaction Guarantee: For 150 years, we have offered the strongest return policy in the business. We will refund some of your money on any purchase that isn't 100% satisfactory. Sometimes, for some reasons, It's not always going to be so simple.

They still make a nice rod and the tippet material is pretty good too. Actually, they make quite a few nice things. Just be careful. Check out Dan Bailey's, LL Bean, and of course Patagonia and Cabella's. You can't go wrong with any of those.

Thanks guys... after searching the threads I did look into Patagonia,Dan Bailey and LLBean. I eliminated Dan Bailey because I don't like the 1/2 belts on the sides. I like to use a full belt so they will just be in the way. The Patagonia's looked very good... but I have never seen them or know anybody who has used them. There is a Patagonia store in Ct about an hour from me... maybe I'll get out there next week. What do you like about Patagonia's? The LLBean Wicked Toughs and GQS's look very good also... the Wicked's are out of stock until at least mid-March. Are these the LLBean models you are talking about? I've been buying from LLBean for almost 40yrs and I know they stand behind their products... they always have.

I know what you mean about Orvis service... I've had a couple of run ins with them over the past 2 months on two pairs of Tailwaters XT's. On two consecutive pairs the left boot was not sized properly (much narrower than the right boot). Plus the neoprene bootie that is molded into the boot on one of them had a good size lump in it. When I sent the first pair back I talked with them first and included a letter telling them NOT to put them back in stock and I included a detailed description on what to look for so they could see he defect for themselves. When I returned the second pair I talked with them again and told them I had a very similar problem again(but different from the first)... and I asked for my original shipping fee to be returned. They looked up the original return and told me it was a "size exchange" and I wasn't entitled to a refund. After a loud discussion I got my refund... but I know those defective waders went back in stock and somebody else will get them. I even called their customer service this week and asked to talk to a technical expert on waders. Told them I was interested in the tailwaters xt and I asked about the quality and if they get many returns or know of any problems. The answers were no and no. So I'm not a happy Orvis fan right now. However, I did try a pair on at Gander Mt and loved them... but the one I tried on was the only one in my size and it was a floor model and looked like they mopped the floor with them. The Orvis experience I had is why I'm asking for comments on them... I was hoping Orvis just got a bad run on them. My son has a pair and loves them but he only has about 10 days of use on them. But I won't pay Orvis the $379... I can get them on ebay for a heck of a lot less... 1/2 price or less. And Orvis knows about that ebay seller... I asked. He buys from them. They told me if I buy from him I won't get the "100% Satisfaction Guarantee" I willing to take a chance on another pair if I get some positive feedback here. Plus the ebay seller has a 15 day money back guarantee and he has a pretty good rep.

Joe

Real quick then I'm off to work... From my understanding, Orvis has the highest return rate on waders and they don't stand behind that particular product. Don't take my word for it though, I've kept away from them due to all the bad press.

Also, SIMMS are a bit out of my league these days. 800 for something that keeps you dry??????????? When every company decides not to make wader anymore except for simms, I'll double up on plastic bags. NO THANKS, SIMMS.

I am out of steam with the return game with Orvis.

Albeit I fish for than your average angler, I am finding the time between leaks ranges from right out of the box to only a couple of months.

I have two pairs of Orvis waders and rarely have them in my possession concurrently as one is out for repair.

In the past two months I received back a pair of leaking Pro Guide 2' and immediately returned a pair of Clear water endura's both stocking foot.

Within weeks the stitching on the gravel Guards of the Pro Guides started coming undone.

Meanwhile after 6 weeks in mid January I was contacted and told the could no longer repair or replace my Clearwater’s. And they Held their breath.

I tried holding mine and the best I could get out of them was 40 % off on any model.

So I ordered a pair of the Silver labels ( an upgrade from the Clearwater’s ) at 40 % off.

Within days of this I received the Orvis Newsprint magazine / catalog with both the Pro Guides and Silver Labels listed as discontinued not at prices available to general public equal to my Great Deal of 40 % off.

I’m Pissed. I have not made call yet, because now I have a pair of brand new waders that’s cost me the same as everyone else, they kept my old leaky waders as un repairable in exchange for the 40 % and I have a two month old pair of stitch ripped Pro Guides.

So at this point I need to make another phone call, incur additional shipping charges if they agree to fix pr replace pro guides and give me better than 40 % off other pair leaving me wader less.

This sucks.

My next pair of emergency waders will be a Pair from LL Bean that I saw for under 100 bucks!

I have concluded its just not worth buying expensive waders or super expensive waders as I hear just as maney horror stories

Ralph

The worst thing about it Ralph, they have you no matter which way you turn.

rford said:

I am out of steam with the return game with Orvis.

<rest of horror story snipped>

My next pair of emergency waders will be a Pair from LL Bean that I saw for under 100 bucks!

Click to expand...

The Patagonias I bought over the summer are too big for me, but are primo waders.

I have a pair of cheap emergency waders from LL Bean (the $59 Flyweights) that I wear as my regular waders. They leaked out of the box, sent them back, replacements lasted through four or five trips before they started leaking at the feet. By this time, I decide I am no longer interested in sending back waders for leaking feet. Stocked up on Aquaseal and I'm good to go. I have no idea why neoprene feet develop pinholes (these leaks are NOT at seams like you'd think. In both feet, the leaks were above the toe seam in the neoprene itself. I have been leak-free for quite some time now.

The next time you go to the Little Lehigh, take a little detour to the LL Bean store (if you haven't already been there). It's on the way! You can PM me if you want directions.

jessie said:

The Patagonias I bought over the summer are too big for me, but are primo waders.

I have a pair of cheap emergency waders from LL Bean (the $59 Flyweights) that I wear as my regular waders. They leaked out of the box, sent them back, replacements lasted through four or five trips before they started leaking at the feet. By this time, I decide I am no longer interested in sending back waders for leaking feet. Stocked up on Aquaseal and I'm good to go. I have no idea why neoprene feet develop pinholes (these leaks are NOT at seams like you'd think. In both feet, the leaks were above the toe seam in the neoprene itself. I have been leak-free for quite some time now.

The next time you go to the Little Lehigh, take a little detour to the LL Bean store (if you haven't already been there). It's on the way! You can PM me if you want directions.

Click to expand...

Jessie,

You got the right answer!

Aquaseal all the way. I've practically lined the entire inside of my waders with the stuff and no more leaks.

No one makes a wader I can't get to leak.

Cdog

Can a class action lawsuit be drawn up to dispute the 100% satisfaction guarantee and the items in question?

Seems like it would work to me.

So far no comments on the Tailwaters... that may not be good.

What LLBean models do you guys like?? Wicked Tough and GQS look pretty good.

The Orvis 100% Satisfaction Guarantee
For over 150 years we have offered the strongest return policy in the business. We will refund your money on any purchase that isn't 100% satisfactory -- any time, for any reason. It's that simple.
dcabarle: I don't think an attorney general or judge would have a problem interpreting that statement.

Then they turnaround a contradict themselves with a different policy in the wader repair section... why would you even look there when buying new waders.

I've had the same pair of G3s since they first came out and never had a problem. Very Comfortable.

I owned several pair of Orvis Silver Label breathable waders and purchased them with a 100% guarantee and if I had a problem with them, I brought them back to the Paramus, NJ store and they replaced them without even checking them for a leak. I didn't mind the poor quality of the waders because they replaced them when I had a leak. About 3 years ago I brought my leaking waders to Orvis and rather than replace them, they switched their policy to repair first and then replace if the repair didn't work. I hit the roof and called Orvis to let them know if they weren't going to replace my leaking waders I didn't want them repaired but instead insisted that they return my money. If they weren't going to back these pieces of sh*t anymore I didn't want their inferior product. I told them that Dan Bailey had a replacement policy for the life of the waders and that's what I was going to buy.

Needless to say, I got a phone call from Tom Rosenbauer, the director of marketing, about three days later and he not only sent me the Aqua-Seal repair kit but sent me a FREE (That rhymes with ME) pair of Orvis XT tailwater waders and I have been wearing them since. It took a few times out to get used to the boot (I wore Chota's w/ my silver labels) but I think they are Hollywood. They are the best waders I have ever owned and would recommend them to anyone. You can fold them down and wear them like pants too, can't say enough about them.

Green Highlander

I agree with some of the comments on this thread. Personally I think that Simms makes the best waders on the market but you will part with some serious cash. While I was in college I sold Patagonia clothing, packs, and other stuff. Their tolerances and designs are awesome and I literally wear Patagonia clothing every day. However, Patagonia refuses to make anything out of Goretex because they are too cheap to license the Gore seam sealers and technology. Since Goretex is the most breathable of the breathable technology and is not a coating (ie it is more durable) I don't own Patagonia waders or fishing jackets and I never will until they offer Goretex. I have a pair of Kevlar reinforced LLBean waders and like some of the other comments here I really like LLBean's warantee. IMHO, I think that Orvis "makes" crappy products. I say it in quotes because I highly doubt that they make anything these days- all outsourced to the pacific rim... I really like the Orvis non toxic shot but it appears that even that has lost its simplicity. I would bet that the Orvis high end rods and reels are ok but to me they are way overpriced for what you get.
On a side note: I worked retail for a long time through college and after... Most warantees for high end outdoor and fishing gear are true and honest but the user needs to read the fine print and understand it: nothing lasts forever even under "normal use". Nothing is scratch proof nor unbreakable. So don't wear something out and expect that a manufacturer will be happy to replace it for little or no cost nor should you expect that they should (be realistic). Having said that, the biggest issue that I used to see is when the customer wants to exercise their right to the warantee and cannot explain what they want. You need to tell them that you believe that you have a warantee issue and you want the item repaired. Or you feel that it is brand new and should be replaced. Give them a real and true story- no bs and what you expect in return. They aren't mind readers but at the same time most of these manufacturers have field testers or the reps work there for the discount. They know and understand what normal wear and tear is. They also keep "blacklists" of people who take advantage of the warantees. But if you have a legit return make sure you express yourself and what you want in return. If you can't get resolution from the returns department then find out who your regional rep is and call them up. Many times they have more clout and can help you.
Ed

azcat1 said:

On a side note: I worked retail for a long time through college and after... Most warantees for high end outdoor and fishing gear are true and honest but the user needs to read the fine print and understand it: nothing lasts forever even under "normal use". Nothing is scratch proof nor unbreakable. So don't wear something out and expect that a manufacturer will be happy to replace it for little or no cost nor should you expect that they should (be realistic). Having said that, the biggest issue that I used to see is when the customer wants to exercise their right to the warantee and cannot explain what they want. You need to tell them that you believe that you have a warantee issue and you want the item repaired. Or you feel that it is brand new and should be replaced. Give them a real and true story- no bs and what you expect in return. They aren't mind readers but at the same time most of these manufacturers have field testers or the reps work there for the discount. They know and understand what normal wear and tear is. They also keep "blacklists" of people who take advantage of the warantees. But if you have a legit return make sure you express yourself and what you want in return. If you can't get resolution from the returns department then find out who your regional rep is and call them up. Many times they have more clout and can help you.
Ed

Click to expand...

Pretty good advice!!!

G.Highlander... thanks for the XT feedback. My son is coming to the same conclusion with his pair but he has only used them on a handfull of trips so far.

I have a size 9 1/2 shoe size and ordered a pair of size 11 Tailwaters XT waders to allow the use of a pair of heavy sox. I found them to be awkward to put on and take off, and tight in the foot area eventhough they were oversize. I sent them back. To my way of thinking, stocking foot waders with separate wading shoes is the easier alternative.

I agree with Green Highlander when he says, "They are the best waders I have ever owned and would recommend them to anyone. You can fold them down and wear them like pants too, can't say enough about them."

They are easier and quicker to put on than stockingfoots, yet give all the ankle support as them. I think the only thing quicker would be a pair of traditional bootfoots. Since I been using them for the past few years I haven't wore my Simms once.
For a hundred dollars less you might want to check out the redesigned Silver Label version of this wader. I saw them at the Somerset Show and they looked good. Different boot and no seams on the inside of your legs were the two things that stood out to me. I also liked that they come in a rubber soled version in addition to felt soles. I was thinking these would make a good pair of beach waders since they should be more comfortable to walk in than bootfoots and there wasn't anyplace that I could see that would catch sand like stockingfoots can do.

Andy, sounds like you ran into the same problem I had... first two pairs the left boot on each was a lot narrower than the right. I take a size 10 and ordered size 11. Right boot was perfect on each. Orvis didn't have an answer on that. I went over to Gander Mt and they had a size 11 and both boots were perfect. But those waders were a store model and were really beat up so I passed.

JoeD, thanks for the feedback. I took a big chance last night and ordered a pair from Adam's Outlet. Approximately 1/2 price. Brand new and supposedly "1st quality". I'll post here how I made out with the boots and Adams Outlet. Adam's has a 15 day money make guarantee... they have great feedback even from people who bought the Tailwaters XT's so I'm hoping this works out.

rford said:

I am out of steam with the return game with Orvis. Ralph

Click to expand...

Sometimes you read something and you let it pass because you have focused in on another part of the statement. Having gone back to find Ralph's post (which I quoted for the reader) and yes it was what I thought it said.

I have seen and posted on many occasion on buying a certain manufacturer and their products because of their quality and most important, their warranty or guaranty.

We all have posted why we like certain fly shops over another, and what constitutes a good fly shop.

Maybe we have missed the point on both topics by over looking the obvious. Wouldn't a great fly shop handle the problem that their customer has experienced either by giving them a new replacement and then the shop owner deal with the manufacturer?

Ralph purchased his waders at Such & Such Fly Shop, and he brought them back and the shop owner gathered all the information from Ralph and knowing his product and what the warranty calls for, gives Ralph a new pair of waders and sends him on his way with the replacement pair under his arm.

To my way of thinking Ralph would return to Such & Such Fly Shop for all his fishing needs. Even better Ralph would post his problem on NEFF and how Such & Such Fly Shop treated him and took care of the problem. Say Green Highlander was looking to purchase a new pair of waders and read Ralph's report, wouldn't one like believe that GH would go to Such & Such to buy his next pair? Because if there ever should be a problem with the waders, he knows that Such & Such would handle it quickly and professionally.

As always, sometimes it is nice to go back and review a post.

AK Skim

AKSkim said:

Say Green Highlander was looking to purchase a new pair of waders and read Ralph's report, wouldn't one like believe that GH would go to Such & Such to buy his next pair?

AK Skim

Click to expand...

Yes!

One would think one would do that very thing. Wouldn't one???

But..........Many a good fly shop like "Such and Such" has gone under because one would rather buy from the cheapest source possible rather than having good service and support of one's purchased product.

When all the great fly shops are extinct, we will have only ourselves to blame.

Same for the manufacturers and dealers. If we keep abusing our gear and the warranties that come with them, where will they be in our future. Gone! A lifetime warranty does not mean, beat it to death then get a new one for free. I riped my waders crawling through a patch of sticker bushes one day, is that Orvis' fault. No, I patched them myself and went out fishing again.

In a previous thread I mentioned Melinda's shop up in Altmar, NY, to prove this very point. Melinda, being a St. Croix dealer, voluntarily replaced my friends broken St. Croix rod and then she dealt with getting a replacement from St. Croix. She has our business for life.

Cdog

There are many reasons why a good number of fly shops have gone under.

Location, if your not on a stream you have to depend on loyal customers to keep coming back and less on the walk ins.

We all want our shop to have every little item we could possibly ever need. That also comes at a price of a high over head.

How long does that $650.00 tying vise sit behind the glass display case before it is sold?

Credit card business, lose 3-5% on each sale v. cash sales. A have to have.

Clothing, very high mark-up, but look at the number of clearance sales. Clearance sales are for when you mis-calculated and is a loss item.

I have small bags of dubbing, all from different shops and by looking at the marked price it always different from shop to shop for the same brand. Example as what the market will bring.

Guide service, rod repair, fly tying classes, rod making classes, not a huge part of the operation but a necessary to alway bring in some operating funds.

Catalog sales, printing and mailing costs, other hidden cost.. putting it together from design layout to photographs to descriptions to proof reader. I use to go to a shop in NH, one person working out front, four working the mail order sales out back.

Rent, utilities, insurance... do you have the ability to provide your employees with medical coverage? All adds up.

Lastly, the owners to the employees they make the difference as to if a business stays afloat or sinks. Trust, new to fly fishing and you walk in and ask for help setting you up and you walk out of super fast action, 10 foot, salmon rod when you really want to hit small streams for trout. You lost a friend for one HUGE SALE... Short sightedness kills more shops than what some of us would believe.

So to claim eBay, catalog warehouses, Big Box Stores.. are the sole cause I can't fully agree. Yes they will draw away people for the cheap stuff... but if you want that Sage, where do you go?

I stopped buying items from Orvis sometime ago, as it seemed the quality hasn't been as good as it used to be, from waders, rods, or even flies.

All their NJ stores are now closed do to low sales, what does that tell you? I was in the NYC store a few weeks ago (only because it's by my brothe's business) and was listening to their sales person trying to upsell a newbie a rod that wasn't a match to what the buyer had just told him he was going to use it for, I left with out buying anything.

Your local (if your lucky enough to have one) will treat you better and help you get what you need.

I got my current waders two years ago from Dan Baily, and they have worn like irn, matched with a pair of LL Bean AquaShoes now six years old.

Stonefly said:

Your local (if your lucky enough to have one) will treat you better and help you get what you need.

I got my current waders two years ago from Dan Baily, and they have worn like irn, matched with a pair of LL Bean AquaShoes now six years old.

Click to expand...

How local is that to Morris County, NJ?

Stonefly said:

I stopped buying items from Orvis sometime ago, as it seemed the quality hasn't been as good as it used to be, from waders, rods, or even flies.

All their NJ stores are now closed do to low sales, what does that tell you? I was in the NYC store a few weeks ago (only because it's by my brothe's business) and was listening to their sales person trying to upsell a newbie a rod that wasn't a match to what the buyer had just told him he was going to use it for, I left with out buying anything.

Your local (if your lucky enough to have one) will treat you better and help you get what you need.

I got my current waders two years ago from Dan Baily, and they have worn like irn, matched with a pair of LL Bean AquaShoes now six years old.

Click to expand...

Are you saying the Orvis store on Route 17 is closed?

Cdog

AKSkim said:

There are many reasons why a good number of fly shops have gone under.

Location, if your not on a stream you have to depend on loyal customers to keep coming back and less on the walk ins.

We all want our shop to have every little item we could possibly ever need. That also comes at a price of a high over head.

How long does that $650.00 tying vise sit behind the glass display case before it is sold?

Credit card business, lose 3-5% on each sale v. cash sales. A have to have.

Clothing, very high mark-up, but look at the number of clearance sales. Clearance sales are for when you mis-calculated and is a loss item.

I have small bags of dubbing, all from different shops and by looking at the marked price it always different from shop to shop for the same brand. Example as what the market will bring.

Guide service, rod repair, fly tying classes, rod making classes, not a huge part of the operation but a necessary to alway bring in some operating funds.

Catalog sales, printing and mailing costs, other hidden cost.. putting it together from design layout to photographs to descriptions to proof reader. I use to go to a shop in NH, one person working out front, four working the mail order sales out back.

Rent, utilities, insurance... do you have the ability to provide your employees with medical coverage? All adds up.

Lastly, the owners to the employees they make the difference as to if a business stays afloat or sinks. Trust, new to fly fishing and you walk in and ask for help setting you up and you walk out of super fast action, 10 foot, salmon rod when you really want to hit small streams for trout. You lost a friend for one HUGE SALE... Short sightedness kills more shops than what some of us would believe.

So to claim eBay, catalog warehouses, Big Box Stores.. are the sole cause I can't fully agree. Yes they will draw away people for the cheap stuff... but if you want that Sage, where do you go?

Click to expand...

AK,

I think your had one to many Corona's for lunch.

What I'm saying is, if you want to have a local fly shop to walk in and browse through, you gotta frequent it and spend some cash.

Warpdog

Corndog said:

AK,

I think your had one to many Corona's for lunch.

What I'm saying is, if you want to have a local fly shop to walk in and browse through, you gotta frequent it and spend some cash.


But..........Many a good fly shop like "Such and Such" has gone under because one would rather buy from the cheapest source possible rather than having good service and support of one's purchased product.

Warpdog

Click to expand...

I think you didn't fully understand my post. I was responding to your second quote as to what I perceive as part of the decline in fly shops.

AKSkim said:

I think you didn't fully understand my post. I was responding to your second quote as to what I perceive as part of the decline in fly shops.

Click to expand...

Oh...right...I was the one that was drinking the Coronas today. No wonder I'm sick at my stomach. I hate limes!

Warpdog

Corndog said:

Are you saying the Orvis store on Route 17 is closed?

Cdog

Click to expand...

Yep, went under not too long ago and now, Ramsey is back to selling Orvis rods again.

Corndog said:

Are you saying the Orvis store on Route 17 is closed?

Cdog

Click to expand...

It's been for a couple of years. The rent skyrocketed so they didn't renew their lease. Ramsey Outdoors is an Orvis dealer

dcabarle said:

Yep, went under not too long ago and now, Ramsey is back to selling Orvis rods again.

Click to expand...

Crap! Another one bites the dust.

Cdog