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Main Stem Access Problem

CR

New member
First off, I had the best day of my life on the main stem over the weekend - caught my first monster Delaware rainbow!!! Four trips this year have produced only ten inchers (I'm an amateur), but this one was a fat 20 inches!

Second, had a major problem with a guy named Peckham, upstream from Lordville, right where the river splits. We were fishing on the NY channel, standing out in the middle of the river, when this guy comes out screaming at us that we are on his private property! He claims to own the river bottom, which is something I had not heard of. He took my boat number and said he was going to call the cops, etc.. I left, not knowing the law, and am trying to get some kind of answer from the park service. Does anyone know the law as to who owns the river bottom?
 
I'd like to know the answer to that also. I talked to a DEC officer at Hale Eddy bridge 2 seasons ago when I first started fishing the WB... and, I asked him if it was ok to wade fish the areas of the river that was boardered by posted property. I specifically wanted to know what the laws/regulations were ..when you access the river from a public area by foot or drift/pontoon boat, and then, is ok to stop & fish those posted areas that one sees all along the roadside.

I cant remember his exact words ..but, he said that technically, a case was still tied up in court (another case besides the Douglaston/Pulaski NY - Slamon RIver) , and a decision has not been made. But, he also said, if the property owner called him, he would "ask the offender to leave".. but, he couldn't actually force the person to leave.

I do not know what court case he was referring to, and I dont know if he was correct in what he told me. But, I felt he was suggesting I shouldn't do it unless I get permision from the boardering property owner.

I'm wondering how I would know where NOT to stop & fish if I float the river, and no visible posted signs appear next to the water?
 
I'm sorry to hear of the owner's challenge. I dunno what the laws are in NY, but this issue is even more complicated because the river borders PA as well.

In PA, I believe the state owns the river bed on any river deemed "navigable". Navigable means the water can be, or has been, used for commercial traffic - logging is always the example. Some of the precedents go back to the 1800's and before.

The PA Fish & Boat Commission has recently filed suit against an owner that has posted property along the Little Juniata River. This river was deemed navigable by the state and they're suing to have the courts declare the river navigable and to have the owner remove cables strung across the river to discourage boating.

If a PA river is navigable then the state claims to own the river bed up to the "normal" high water mark. If the state owns these rivers, in most cases it feels that the public has a right to access / recreate on that property.

I'm not a lawyer and the above is just my intepretations of the issue in PA. I sure hope NY has similar laws as PA has, and that the main stem is deemed navigable water.

It's a doggone shame about these access issues arising (Stockport, this new report, etc.). IMHO, this waterway is a public resource and the public should have access. If bordering property is posted and one floats down AND STAYS WITHIN THE HIGH WATER MARKS, then user should be able to enjoy the resource in any way they see fit without being accosted by the owner of the bank property. At all times the owner's right / property should be respected, but claiming ownership of the riverbed goes a bit too far.

Just my 2 cents.


Shawn
 
I find the whole private access thing so ridiculous.

Never have I seen so much river access shut off from the public. It really is an insult the local natives and respectful nature lovers who cannot even enjoy the beauty and sights that the U.S. provides.

The Delaware River system seems to be the worse example of this arrangement. The built up resentment of the local citizens of Hancock and other surrounding towns towards particular land owners borders on true disgust. What a shame.

At this point, who can truly blame people if they choose to walk through to get access?

What ever happened to freedom and the pursuit of happieness in the U.S.?
 
Private ownership is one of the founding principles of this nation. As devil's advocate, "I pursue happiness by acquiring property that is mine to do with as I please. Where no one will bother me or interupt the solitude I so crave."
Do you have a gas grill or a pool in your back yard? How about if a stranger shows up to cook off a few burgers and take a dip. You'd call the cops. No one has the right to use your property that you've worked so hard to own. Add the occasional garbage thrown around, the noise at odd hours, or the illegal/unethical acts done there and you should understand why some one would want to cut off access to the beautiful place they love (so much so that they PAID to own it and pay the taxes every year) from the people that only seem to want to use/abuse it in some way. Sure there are people that would respect the property, but do you want to be the one to have to figure out which ones pass the test. It is difficult to look into the heart/mind of another.
If the Public were so inclined to ensure that the access to these rivers was so important to the public good, they would find some way ($) to make some arrangements. There are public lands that have been aqcuired by the states and the federal government for public use. It's tricky, but the owners of the land have certain rights, as they should. Don't forget that the land, to them, is one of the most important things in the world (365 days a year/ for their lives) not just a destination a couple of times a year to have fun. Try to see both sides of it.
Having said ALL that, I'm sure that there are some owners that fall into the category "I GOT MINE" too. Bastards.

West Branch tomorrow! Let's go get 'em Mike!
 
FF, I think your analogy is a little thin with all due respect. Wer'e not talking about a backyard pool and grill here. This is a natural resource, a river, a water way that should be there for all to enjoy not just those who can afford to. I understand the principle of private ownership and how it began but this begs a bigger issue, should natural resources be in the hands of private individuals? sSould they have the right to close it off to the public? Should they have the right to use it to make aprofit off the public? In my oponion the answer is no. I guess there is till a little 60's Socialism left in me. Again with all due respect.
 
Yeah Andre, the analogy was meant to strike a chord.

If we say that natural resources should not be in private hands, who then says what is a natural resource? How big a trickle of water constitutes one which must be shared with all? For someone who lives in a concrete building- no grass and no trees, a short trip to the suburbs and any little patch of grass or grove of trees might seem an appropriate natural resource to sit under for a picnic. What government has the right to take away your right to determine who will walk on or through your property?

If you own a house on a lake, should anyone have the right to use your yard to put their boat in? If your answer would be "there is a public boat launch on the other side of the lake so go there", one with land on these rivers would say "there is public access at point x, get to the natural resource that way".

I heard one argument that went that the public pays for the fish (the fish are owned by the state) that are stocked in the rivers so the public should have access to them. Jersey still stocks pheasants, yes? Should the public be given free access to the land under any pheasant? In NY the deer and turkey are property of the state (in a sense). What anarchy there would be out here in the boon docks if people followed that same logic!

In Jersey and now more and more here in NY, because of the lack of access to unposted land, people form small groups and pay landowners to hunt on their property. (It is funny, that the first thing that these guys do is "help" the owner post the property so they have exclusive rights to it.) I know you said that owners shouldn't profit from their being situated on the river. But should they not profit in some way from the value of the property they own? Property values are different all over, and people make money based on them. Why not in this case? If they took ten bucks from every car that parked on their property to go fishing or whatever, would that be OK? If that is OK, then what is the difference?

I know this is a complicated subject, and no simple little analogy will encompass the entire issue,but I guess my point is that there has to be at least some understanding between those who own land around these resources and those who want to use the resource. It used to be that people would show up now and again to say hello, drop off a bottle(my dad once got a couple of pounds of homemade salami from this old Italian man that used to hunt on our property), or help out in some small way in return for the privilege of using somebody's property. But we live in different times, and even if they showed up, having people you hardly know tromping around is not too much of a settling thought. I'm just begining to fish these rivers, and would hate to lose the privilege of doing so, but I think it is up to the state to ensure that New Yorkers (and some people from NJ :) ) have the right to fish these waters in some way shape or form that is fair to everyone involved.
 
Hi CR

Just curious where exactly where you fishing?

Is there an island there?

There is a gentleman there who does own the streams bottom.

It is actually in his deed from way back.

If you where on his property than you cannot fish it.


Other than that I dont know of any other places on the D that you cant get out and fish.
 
Isn't that the infamous "Frisbee Island". I've read posts about this place on other boards? I heard too that he has a legit claim which is pretty unique. Everywhere else on the river one, once getting access to the river is free to float, wade and fish everywhere below the high water mark.
 
The law in New York states that if you own both sides of the river, then you own the river bottom. This law was a result of a Court of Appeals decision initiated by Senator Barkley on the Salmon River, after losing the initial case, brought by the Oswego Guides Association. In order to force the issue and get the case into the courts, the guides anchored up in the Douglaston Salmon Run property on the Salmon River, owned, both sides by Barkley. The original ruling, citing Commonwealth Laws, Federal laws, navagability etc, sided with the guides association, recognizing the high water mark. Unfortunately, Barkley was able to get the NY Court of appeals to hear the case and overturn the original decision, therefore impacting all NY rivers.

The island that you describe sounds like Frisbee and is owned by the landowner as well as the adjacent land on the NY side, so, looks like he owns the river bottom.
 
Boy... I didn't know the new ruling. When did that occur? I guess this means that the WBD above the State line can be "posted" even in the stream bed?
 
I am not questioning the case itself,but I would like to take a look at all the facts,since I spoke with the guys at the DRC, and a buddy of mine at the DEC and They all basically said the same thing.

Even if the land owner owns both sides of the river,the deed must state that he or she owns the river bottom.

If the deed shows that they do not own the river bottom you can fish it.

Like I said earlier the Island is a unique situation where the owner does own the stream bottom by deed.

Did Barkley have a deed showing that he owned the Bottom of the river?


JOE.T
 
Joe and Fred,
I dont know what the Court of Appeals based their ruling on, I'm sure it wasnt common case law, but probably had an awful lot to do with poiltics as the Barkley Family has been a political mainstay in Western NY for years and years. Just speculation on my part.
This is not a new ruling. I believe it was in 89, 90, 91.
The impact of this, however applies to all NY streams where an owner owns both sides of the river.
The way I understand it is, the only regulatory body that can overturn this would be the Federal Govt. and they have no interest in hearing this case. Dont understand why due to it's potentially precedent setting implications, but thats the way it is.

Oh, and you can fish the water, the issue was anchoring up and getting out of the boat. You are certainly allowed to drift through and fish.
 
My question now, is "does this guy own both SIDES of the river?" Technically, he owns one side plus an island in the center. That, by definition, is not both SIDES of the river...no?
 
Cr

He owns the river bottom.Its in his deed.

Again it has nothing to do withboth sides.

If you want call jeff at the DRC he may be able to explain it better than I can.

1 800 6mayfly

Tell him I told you to call him about.
 
I believe you!

I found the court case online and I guess the ruling says we're allowed to float fish that section, provided we don't anchor. It's because the river is classified as a navigable river.

I'll just have to get an electric motor and keep floating up and down it, because it's a favorite stretch! At least it's an option...
 
My question now, is "does this guy own both SIDES of the river?" Technically, he owns one side plus an island in the center. That, by definition, is not both SIDES of the river...no?
...............

FYI

1) Frisbie Island is privately owned.
2) The New York side is owned by the same person as Frisbie Island.
3)The Army Corps of Engineers, NYS DEC and the NPS have ruled that the side channel of this part of MS is between the New York side and Frisbie Island - not Frisbie Island and Pennsylvania - thus the landowner owns the river bottom.

TR
Narrowsburg, NY
www.gonefishingguideservice.com/river.php
 
Just for my education---what is this guy doing with this piece of land? Is it homes or some sort of resort or is he just being nasty?
 
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