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fishhead said:
Illegal immigrants are the only ones willing to do that work for those wages. If the undocumented workers were not here to take the jobs, you would have to pay more to get an American worker to do the same job. It's not so much that people don't want to do the job. They don't want to do it for the wages offered..
Click to expand...

I apologize for missing the intent of your post.....but..............

If the job required a higher wage the restaurant would be out of business.....Where I work, we are in the business of giving a fair value, ya know a good product for an affordable price......honesty...true capitalism.......we aren't trying to get the most for the least.....
We also give a fair wage, and are above the industry average......so, find me a young American, who is willing to work, and maybe learn a trade..(no and not go to the ever necessary college...say it ain't so)work their way up the ladder, from nothing.....$9.00 an hour..to executive chef...which I must say, is a more than comfortable living, if you live modestly.....I haven't met one in at least 15 years.....but I see one everyday I look in the mirror..not so young anymore, but by no means old.....
This is what is missing around me...young people who are willing to swallow their pride, and learn something that is hard....they think everything should be spoon fed, and be quick...they lack constitution, and drive.....
But a guy that ate rice and beans everyday growing up, and has been picking fruit in 110 degree 100 percent humidity, under the Ecuadorian sun since he was 8......now that fella will listen, and learn, and perform.......in fact they, because there are more than one, learn English in a matter of weeks, and they do pay their taxes, and abide by the law, and pay the doctor when they go......and have respectable families, and lifestyles.....


Excuse me for editing, but....I believe the key word here is "want", which should be they "really need"......are we as a society so pampered at this point that people can choose whether they will wash dishes for a specific wage?.......If you don't like the wage, better yourself .......and don't cry to me ..the economy, the economy..if you are good, honest, and dedicated, you WILL be successful....I am on neither side of your debate with Tobias..let's just say I represent common sense.....
 
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fishhead said:
Historically, progressives have led the way to just about every good thing about this country, beginning with the Founding Fathers who were the first American Progressives.
Click to expand...

The Founding Fathers were NOT progressives by any means!
 
My son is currently working in a job that pays 7.50/hr. and many young Americans are willing to work for less than the 9.00 you offer, but 9/hr. does not support an adult lifestyle in America, and certainly cannot support a family no matter how good and honest you are. The bottom line of capitalism is profit, and the most efficient way of turning a profit is controlling costs. Owners frequently pay their employees as little as they can as a way to control costs. There will always be a demand for cheap labor. After all, there can only be so many owners and executive chefs, and somebody has to wash the dishes and harvest the lettuce. How did restaurants stay in business or crops get picked before the influx of cheap illegal immigrant labor?

lightenup said:
I apologize for missing the intent of your post.....but..............

If the job required a higher wage the restaurant would be out of business.....Where I work, we are in the business of giving a fair value, ya know a good product for an affordable price......honesty...true capitalism.......we aren't trying to get the most for the least.....
We also give a fair wage, and are above the industry average......so, find me a young American, who is willing to work, and maybe learn a trade..(no and not go to the ever necessary college...say it ain't so)work their way up the ladder, from nothing.....$9.00 an hour..to executive chef...which I must say, is a more than comfortable living, if you live modestly.....I haven't met one in at least 15 years.....but I see one everyday I look in the mirror..not so young anymore, but by no means old.....
This is what is missing around me...young people who are willing to swallow their pride, and learn something that is hard....they think everything should be spoon fed, and be quick...they lack constitution, and drive.....
But a guy that ate rice and beans everyday growing up, and has been picking fruit in 110 degree 100 percent humidity, under the Ecuadorian sun since he was 8......now that fella will listen, and learn, and perform.......in fact they, because there are more than one, learn English in a matter of weeks, and they do pay their taxes, and abide by the law, and pay the doctor when they go......and have respectable families, and lifestyles.....


Excuse me for editing, but....I believe the key word here is "want", which should be they "really need"......are we as a society so pampered at this point that people can choose whether they will wash dishes for a specific wage?.......If you don't like the wage, better yourself .......and don't cry to me ..the economy, the economy..if you are good, honest, and dedicated, you WILL be successful....I am on neither side of your debate with Tobias..let's just say I represent common sense.....
Click to expand...
 
lightenup said:
I apologize for missing the intent of your post.....but..............

If the job required a higher wage the restaurant would be out of business.....Where I work, we are in the business of giving a fair value, ya know a good product for an affordable price......honesty...true capitalism.......we aren't trying to get the most for the least.....
Click to expand...

Isn't the way wages are SUPPOSED to work quided by the supply and demand principle? In TRUE capitalism, IF, for whatever reason, one cannot find people to do a certain job for a certain amount of money, then shouldn't he increase the compensation until he finds the point where people find that compensation adequate? If ALL businesses followed this principle, sure prices would go up, but the business who could integrate the higher wages into their prices best, would be most likely to succeed.

I know PLENTY of people willing to do hard work... if they were compensated well.

There is a HUGE segment of our society that COULD do these jobs. Stopping subsidizing their way of life might go a long way toward providing an impetus to take these jobs. AND if this pool of "low wage" jobs then dried up, then it would help dissuade others from coming here to live illegally.

I have to add, I am totally disgusted with the amount of posts on this FLY FISHING site that have NOTHING to do with fly fishing... Where is the OUTRAGE I've seen in the past? (or should I say TROUTRAGE?) :)
 
I agree with you FF, even addressing the issues of welfare cheats and subsidies for the lazy. As for the troutrage, I find myself having time for this kind of discussion in the winter and when the water is high.

Future Fanatic said:
Isn't the way wages are SUPPOSED to work quided by the supply and demand principle? In TRUE capitalism, IF, for whatever reason, one cannot find people to do a certain job for a certain amount of money, then shouldn't he increase the compensation until he finds the point where people find that compensation adequate? If ALL businesses followed this principle, sure prices would go up, but the business who could integrate the higher wages into their prices best, would be most likely to succeed.

I know PLENTY of people willing to do hard work... if they were compensated well.

There is a HUGE segment of our society that COULD do these jobs. Stopping subsidizing their way of life might go a long way toward providing an impetus to take these jobs. AND if this pool of "low wage" jobs then dried up, then it would help dissuade others from coming here to live illegally.

I have to add, I am totally disgusted with the amount of posts on this FLY FISHING site that have NOTHING to do with fly fishing... Where is the OUTRAGE I've seen in the past? (or should I say TROUTRAGE?) :)
Click to expand...
 
fishhead said:
I agree with you FF, even addressing the issues of welfare cheats and subsidies for the lazy.
Click to expand...

I'm not just talking about the "cheats" and the "lazy".

I fear we have conditioned a segment of our society to "accept" what WE give them. WE have eroded away a sense of self reliance and determination to strive for MORE.

WE keep more of our money by demanding cheaper prices. This in turn puts pressure to lower wages. How many MILLIONS of LOW wage jobs do we support in foreign countries? To keep money in our pockets. WE demand food, just for an example, LU, at a "fair value, ya know a good product for an affordable price". WE pressure a business to hire illegal workers at "below market wages" (most Americans are unwilling to take for that particular job). BECAUSE we want to keep money in our pockets, we ALLOW illegal workers from foreign countries to take jobs with wages "below market value". This money we "saved" in our pockets must then be paid to Americans who DON'T work (or don't work ENOUGH)(or don't make enough due to wages that are artificially low). A little simplistic, but it seems like a big circle that creates several problems... It seems that "fixing" one of the "problems" would help fix them all.

I sometimes think about the portion of my tens of thousands of dollars I pay in taxes to the state and federal governments that go directly to support individuals... if I could take that and instead pay it in WAGES to some under employed individual, where he would gain experience, a reference and some self esteem and I would gain some service being done, wouldn't that be a net gain for the economy and the country in general longterm?

Most parents attach conditions to any allowance they may give their kids. Why? And why not apply the same, to those we give an "allowance" to? But THAT is another thread...
 
As I stated before. ILLEGALS cost us more than they put back into the system.

The High Cost of Cheap Labor | Center for Immigration Studies

Executive Summary​
Cash20Money-1.png

This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.
Among the findings:

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.


Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion);food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).


With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.


On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.


Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.


If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.


Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status -- what most illegal aliens would become -- can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.


Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.


The fact that legal immigrants with few years of schooling are a large fiscal drain does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a net drain -- many legal immigrants are highly skilled.


The vast majority of illegals hold jobs. Thus the fiscal deficit they create for the federal government is not the result of an unwillingness to work.


The results of this study are consistent with a 1997 study by the National Research Council, which also found that immigrants' education level is a key determinant of their fiscal impact.
 
fishhead said:
I know it's shocking, but the Founding Fathers were the Progressives of their day.
Click to expand...

No. I'd say they were pretty conservative/libertarians. Progressives are all for craddle to grave big government. The Founding Fathers were anything but big government.
 
fishhead said:
The bottom line of capitalism is profit, and the most efficient way of turning a profit is controlling costs.
Click to expand...

Owners pay a wage for the skill it takes to complete the task at hand. Also, we do not have true capitalism and free market in America today. We have crony capitalism. You can blame both sides of the aisle for that. They don't work for you, they work for the special interest groups and the corporations that line their pockets.
 
Future Fanatic said:
I sometimes think about the portion of my tens of thousands of dollars I pay in taxes to the state and federal governments that go directly to support individuals... if I could take that and instead pay it in WAGES to some under employed individual, where he would gain experience, a reference and some self esteem and I would gain some service being done, wouldn't that be a net gain for the economy and the country in general longterm?

Most parents attach conditions to any allowance they may give their kids. Why? And why not apply the same, to those we give an "allowance" to? But THAT is another thread...
Click to expand...

Because then they would lose votes! Sheesh. Can't go buying votes with other people money if people work and realize a good chunk of their pay check is going to those "less fortunate" (lazy free loaders) who choose not to work and live off the rest of us.

**Yes I know there are those who have no other choice and come on hard times.** That doesn't mean being on welfare and WIC is meant to be a career!! There needs to be a cut off. Nine months sounds good. If you can't find a job in nine months, then too bad so sad. Go back to school and learn a trade. If my brother can find a full time job in under a week moving to a new state that pays $14 an hour, then so can everyone else. Unless of course they are a wicked cool high school drop out, then they can go be a ditch digger. The world needs ditch diggers. People shouldn't expect to get more than the minimum when their experience and education are below the minimum.
 
 
Future Fanatic said:
I know PLENTY of people willing to do hard work... if they were compensated well.

There is a HUGE segment of our society that COULD do these jobs. Stopping subsidizing their way of life might go a long way toward providing an impetus to take these jobs. AND if this pool of "low wage" jobs then dried up, then it would help dissuade others from coming here to live illegally.

I have to add, I am totally disgusted with the amount of posts on this FLY FISHING site that have NOTHING to do with fly fishing... Where is the OUTRAGE I've seen in the past? (or should I say TROUTRAGE?) :)
Click to expand...

Their way of life is the key.....it is a societal issue.....Many Americans feel it is their right to have whatever everyone else has....even if they don't have to work for it..or can't afford it......how come all the illegals can support themselves here on the meager wages, AND send money home to their families?
They do not expect a certain lifestyle, and live within their means.....I don't think I need to explain or discuss what I am trying to say..you are all smart and understand! We are spoiled by are own expectations of life..it is perpetuated by the media, entertainment and otherwise....

send those hard workers to NJ....I look to hire and get 0 resumes.....it is kind of ridiculous!
 
Future Fanatic said:
He was very worried and "concerned that the government was looking in on his material"... (2:20)
Video at:
Journalist Michael Hastings dies; autopsy results will take weeks - latimes.com
Click to expand...

It's just a "coincidence". Nothing to see here folks.

Engine thrown 50' from the car. "Sounded like a bomb went off". Probably because it was a bomb placed in his car. Cars are designed so the engine drops off the mounts and falls under the car during a crash, not fly 50' out of the car.
 
They are able to support themselves because parts of a number of families and their friends share an apartment, and they live on rice and beans. Is this the means that people should live within? Are people spoiled to expect more if they work a full time job?

lightenup said:
Their way of life is the key.....it is a societal issue.....Many Americans feel it is their right to have whatever everyone else has....even if they don't have to work for it..or can't afford it......how come all the illegals can support themselves here on the meager wages, AND send money home to their families?
They do not expect a certain lifestyle, and live within their means.....I don't think I need to explain or discuss what I am trying to say..you are all smart and understand! We are spoiled by are own expectations of life..it is perpetuated by the media, entertainment and otherwise....

send those hard workers to NJ....I look to hire and get 0 resumes.....it is kind of ridiculous!
Click to expand...
 
fishhead said:
They are able to support themselves because parts of a number of families and their friends share an apartment, and they live on rice and beans. Is this the means that people should live within? Are people spoiled to expect more if they work a full time job?
Click to expand...

You mean that this scenario works because they rely on the principle of the nuclear/extended family supporting eachother? Like in the "old days"? When your relative lost his job or ability to work YOU supported/took care of him? When you realized that it was YOUR responsibility to take care of those you cared about?

Yes, maybe people ARE spoiled to EXPECT more. Especially if they EXPECT that OTHER people who happen to make more (based on their good decisions to get a higher education or training or take a risk or have some skill or whatever) to PAY them for their decisions NOT to do those things. What "level" is appropriate to "expect"? Should a low income person who is un or under employed smoke? drink alcohol? have cable? kids? I mean, really, we should help out with rent/food if they have money for "extras" like that?

We as tax payers provide through government programs, MANY opportunities to get education/training at LITTLE or NO expense to low income people. But when they decide not to avail themselves of THAT opportunity, we then are taxed to support THAT decision also.

You can lead a horse to water...
But when he DOESN'T drink...

I don't mind HELPING people.
But I can't want them to "succeed" MORE than they want themselves to succeed.
 
fishhead said:
They are able to support themselves because parts of a number of families and their friends share an apartment, and they live on rice and beans. Is this the means that people should live within? Are people spoiled to expect more if they work a full time job?
Click to expand...

My friend...do not believe everything you see or hear...this is the case sometimes, but not all of them live like dogs.....The people who work with me, yes they all presented papers for hire....live well. They do share an apartment, or house, but with the normal amount of people to bedroom ratio. You see, they choose to have more than one job, or work a twelve hour shift six days a week...I will not allow them to work seven days no matter how much they plead with me......they live responsibly and frugally....extras are not a necessity...as FF has so graciously explained in his last post, choices are key.......this IS what America was built on, it was just the Irish, and Italian, and Polish immigrants years ago...who are now the American people...My family came from Ireland and Italy...The Irish side came to America in the early 1700, the Italian side came here in the 1920's.....hard working people, usually from another country....

Oh and BTW, they like rice and beans, but also eat other things that are expensive..they work in a good restaurant and work very hard and do a very good job, so the chef takes care of them.....
 
fishhead said:
They are able to support themselves because parts of a number of families and their friends share an apartment, and they live on rice and beans. Is this the means that people should live within? Are people spoiled to expect more if they work a full time job?
Click to expand...

You also forgot to mention they collect welfare and other government handouts using fake credentials.
 
In the course of my work, I had contact with many immigrant families. I saw first hand how many of them were living. As you note the folks in your employ work upwards of 72 hours per week and share expenses to get by, and you pay them better than most places and add food as a nice perk. My son was washing dishes in a restaurant next to immigrant workers and was paid $5/hr. I don't know what the other people were paid or their immigration status. We want our kids to work hard, but the dream can't be, "If you work hard in a tough job 72 hrs. a week, you'll be able to share an apartment with a group of other people, eat a meager diet, and enjoy few of the amenities of life. Maybe, if you scrimp, you can go to a movie once a month."

lightenup said:
My friend...do not believe everything you see or hear...this is the case sometimes, but not all of them live like dogs.....The people who work with me, yes they all presented papers for hire....live well. They do share an apartment, or house, but with the normal amount of people to bedroom ratio. You see, they choose to have more than one job, or work a twelve hour shift six days a week...I will not allow them to work seven days no matter how much they plead with me......they live responsibly and frugally....extras are not a necessity...as FF has so graciously explained in his last post, choices are key.......this IS what America was built on, it was just the Irish, and Italian, and Polish immigrants years ago...who are now the American people...My family came from Ireland and Italy...The Irish side came to America in the early 1700, the Italian side came here in the 1920's.....hard working people, usually from another country....

Oh and BTW, they like rice and beans, but also eat other things that are expensive..they work in a good restaurant and work very hard and do a very good job, so the chef takes care of them.....
Click to expand...
 
fishhead said:
In the course of my work, I had contact with many immigrant families. I saw first hand how many of them were living. As you note the folks in your employ work upwards of 72 hours per week and share expenses to get by, and you pay them better than most places and add food as a nice perk. My son was washing dishes in a restaurant next to immigrant workers and was paid $5/hr. I don't know what the other people were paid or their immigration status. We want our kids to work hard, but the dream can't be, "If you work hard in a tough job 72 hrs. a week, you'll be able to share an apartment with a group of other people, eat a meager diet, and enjoy few of the amenities of life. Maybe, if you scrimp, you can go to a movie once a month."
Click to expand...

The job..for an American, should be a stepping stone to bigger and better things....Your son, should learn a bit washing dishes..then become a cook, or busboy, then a server or sous chef, then a manager or an executive chef......One Ecuadorian I hired as a dishwasher, was offered the sous chef position just last week....To my surprise, he didn't want it..he is happy being my number one cook, and making upwards of $700.00 a week..you can see a couple movies if you make the right decisions....in fact on that pay you can have a nice apartment, go out to dinner or lunch once or twice a week..hell you can live like a real American!!!!!

Your son, I hope isn't still washing dishes, is he? It is a process, such as an apprentice learning a trade and going out on his own......Your thinking, I am thinking is the problem I am speaking of....
You do not, and will not, and can't start at the top.....which seems to be the attitude I run into with people constantly....
 
I have no use for people who will not work. Even in a world where everyone worked hard and strove to do their best, there would still be low skill and menial jobs that would have to get done, and sometimes they will be the only jobs available. Realistically, Everybody will not have the opportunity or ability to become chiefs. There will always be many Indians. All I'm saying is if they work responsibly, and put in their 40-50 hours a week, the Indians should be able to live a little better.

Future Fanatic said:
You mean that this scenario works because they rely on the principle of the nuclear/extended family supporting eachother? Like in the "old days"? When your relative lost his job or ability to work YOU supported/took care of him? When you realized that it was YOUR responsibility to take care of those you cared about?

Yes, maybe people ARE spoiled to EXPECT more. Especially if they EXPECT that OTHER people who happen to make more (based on their good decisions to get a higher education or training or take a risk or have some skill or whatever) to PAY them for their decisions NOT to do those things. What "level" is appropriate to "expect"? Should a low income person who is un or under employed smoke? drink alcohol? have cable? kids? I mean, really, we should help out with rent/food if they have money for "extras" like that?

We as tax payers provide through government programs, MANY opportunities to get education/training at LITTLE or NO expense to low income people. But when they decide not to avail themselves of THAT opportunity, we then are taxed to support THAT decision also.

You can lead a horse to water...
But when he DOESN'T drink...

I don't mind HELPING people.
But I can't want them to "succeed" MORE than they want themselves to succeed.
Click to expand...
 
Son is now in a job earning 7.50/hr. I don't expect anybody to start at the top except the children that come from wealth, and I don't agree with that. I just think that our working poor should be able to live better.

lightenup said:
The job..for an American, should be a stepping stone to bigger and better things....Your son, should learn a bit washing dishes..then become a cook, or busboy, then a server or sous chef, then a manager or an executive chef......One Ecuadorian I hired as a dishwasher, was offered the sous chef position just last week....To my surprise, he didn't want it..he is happy being my number one cook, and making upwards of $700.00 a week..you can see a couple movies if you make the right decisions....in fact on that pay you can have a nice apartment, go out to dinner or lunch once or twice a week..hell you can live like a real American!!!!!

Your son, I hope isn't still washing dishes, is he? It is a process, such as an apprentice learning a trade and going out on his own......Your thinking, I am thinking is the problem I am speaking of....
You do not, and will not, and can't start at the top.....which seems to be the attitude I run into with people constantly....
Click to expand...
 
fishhead said:
Son is now in a job earning 7.50/hr. I don't expect anybody to start at the top except the children that come from wealth, and I don't agree with that. I just think that our working poor should be able to live better.
Click to expand...

There will always be poor people..working and not...I believe the point I am trying to make to you is that these government handouts, no matter how well intended, enable people to be lazy and take advantage...It is a mind-set, a societal problem, and adding to the programs will not help the situation....

and.......if you are willing to work hard..you will find a job and will be successful...the willingness is the problem....

seems the thread has taken some twists and turns..what was the original point?
 
Don't remember. If our working poor were not so poor, it would go a long way to providing the incentive for people to work. I have no problem with less money for lazy people who won't work. Just think there should be more money for those that do.

lightenup said:
There will always be poor people..working and not...I believe the point I am trying to make to you is that these government handouts, no matter how well intended, enable people to be lazy and take advantage...It is a mind-set, a societal problem, and adding to the programs will not help the situation....

and.......if you are willing to work hard..you will find a job and will be successful...the willingness is the problem....

seems the thread has taken some twists and turns..what was the original point?
Click to expand...
 
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