Does anyone know why we are getting this huge release suddenly ? Is it coming from the habitat bank , river master release for Monteque , or a result of this latest meeting ? It sure is either feast or famine. We could have used just a small amount of this water the last few weeks. Mind you , I'm not complaining about this awesome cold water coming down right now, but it would be better if they could even things out a bit over a longer period.
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Big release
- Thread starter EB WADER
- Start date
comparadun
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EB Wader,
First of all, it's nice to see a push of water. Why so much all of a sudden?..I do not know either. We have been getting an extra push of water on Fridays this summer I guess due to ppl cutting back.
It is,however, a crying shame that a fairly big release is coming now after the damage on the MS has already been done and we've had full reservoirs. Doesn't make sense...although NYC has never really cared about the fishery up here. Hopefully the parties working to better the fishery will get an agreement for good mandatory releases in the near future.
In my 26 yrs of fishing the system, I have NEVER seen elevated temps like this year on the MS in a non-drought year. This past Tues for example, I had 81 degrees at Buckingham at 6pm!
First of all, it's nice to see a push of water. Why so much all of a sudden?..I do not know either. We have been getting an extra push of water on Fridays this summer I guess due to ppl cutting back.
It is,however, a crying shame that a fairly big release is coming now after the damage on the MS has already been done and we've had full reservoirs. Doesn't make sense...although NYC has never really cared about the fishery up here. Hopefully the parties working to better the fishery will get an agreement for good mandatory releases in the near future.
In my 26 yrs of fishing the system, I have NEVER seen elevated temps like this year on the MS in a non-drought year. This past Tues for example, I had 81 degrees at Buckingham at 6pm!
EB Wader, Comparadun,
With PPL shutting generation for the weekend and no generated releases from Rio, we have a big pulse of water to meet montague target. If they stick to what they have been doing, we should look for this to drop back off before Monday.
This would be considered a typical yo yo release, if it drops back down all of a sudden. A YO YO, PULSED or WHATEVER QUICK UP AND DOWN RELEASE IS WORSE FOR FISH THAN BETTER. This is a major flaw in using both thermal and flow targets. You will always have yo yo releases when trying to meet these targets. thermal and flow targets are horrible for any river system when trying to meet them with yo yo releases. Here is what I see as a problem. One inch in water height can make all the difference with a fish being able to get from one area to another.
Just before water got low on the main stem and westbranch prior to this release, there may have been a few fish that were able to make their way across the shallow water and find any last bit of thermal refuge left on the mainstem. Others were able to make it north into the west branch to seek thermal refuge. Moving further upstream, seaking cold water. Some fish make it to these thermal refuge's and will not leave because they are feeling all cozy. As they stay and recover from heat stroke, the water they swam through originally, drops off even further and with what we've seen, becomes dry in many spots. Fish would no longer be able to swim through the shallows because the shallows are now trickles or dry. You get a big pulse of water, cold as a witches &$! and fish feel they can go back to other parts of the river, even dropping back down stream. Come time when the release shuts down, water is now back to extremely low conditions and fish that moved back downstream can no longer make it upstream to thermal refuge because the water gone. They become trapped in the open, water heats back up to lethal limits and gonzo.
With PPL shutting generation for the weekend and no generated releases from Rio, we have a big pulse of water to meet montague target. If they stick to what they have been doing, we should look for this to drop back off before Monday.
This would be considered a typical yo yo release, if it drops back down all of a sudden. A YO YO, PULSED or WHATEVER QUICK UP AND DOWN RELEASE IS WORSE FOR FISH THAN BETTER. This is a major flaw in using both thermal and flow targets. You will always have yo yo releases when trying to meet these targets. thermal and flow targets are horrible for any river system when trying to meet them with yo yo releases. Here is what I see as a problem. One inch in water height can make all the difference with a fish being able to get from one area to another.
Just before water got low on the main stem and westbranch prior to this release, there may have been a few fish that were able to make their way across the shallow water and find any last bit of thermal refuge left on the mainstem. Others were able to make it north into the west branch to seek thermal refuge. Moving further upstream, seaking cold water. Some fish make it to these thermal refuge's and will not leave because they are feeling all cozy. As they stay and recover from heat stroke, the water they swam through originally, drops off even further and with what we've seen, becomes dry in many spots. Fish would no longer be able to swim through the shallows because the shallows are now trickles or dry. You get a big pulse of water, cold as a witches &$! and fish feel they can go back to other parts of the river, even dropping back down stream. Come time when the release shuts down, water is now back to extremely low conditions and fish that moved back downstream can no longer make it upstream to thermal refuge because the water gone. They become trapped in the open, water heats back up to lethal limits and gonzo.
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comparadun
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Fly Tier,
Certainly yo yo releases are not good for any fishery. That's why FUDR is fighting for a constant release for the future. I hope this happens so we might see the full potential of this system.
I have to disagree that a yo yo release is worse than better for the trout at this time. I think that some of the fish trapped in what refuges we have left in the MS will make it out of them and travel north. The ones that do not will gather much needed energy and most, if not all, will make it back as the water recedes. Also the water temps will not heat up instantly but perhaps in two or three days to where they were before the yo yo release. Trout are much "smarter" than we think.................just my thoughts................
Certainly yo yo releases are not good for any fishery. That's why FUDR is fighting for a constant release for the future. I hope this happens so we might see the full potential of this system.
I have to disagree that a yo yo release is worse than better for the trout at this time. I think that some of the fish trapped in what refuges we have left in the MS will make it out of them and travel north. The ones that do not will gather much needed energy and most, if not all, will make it back as the water recedes. Also the water temps will not heat up instantly but perhaps in two or three days to where they were before the yo yo release. Trout are much "smarter" than we think.................just my thoughts................
Hey Comparadun,
My thinking with the trout, they look for cold water. They have travelled north in search for cold water. Once cold water comes through, they would more than likely travel back south to where they were originally comfortable. As the water drops, they will stay put, as you say because the water will not heat back up right away. When the water is back down to where it was, and starts to heat up, they will be trapped. The water was so low on the main prior to this release, it would be virtually impossible to get back upstream in a lot of areas.
just my thoughts.
My thinking with the trout, they look for cold water. They have travelled north in search for cold water. Once cold water comes through, they would more than likely travel back south to where they were originally comfortable. As the water drops, they will stay put, as you say because the water will not heat back up right away. When the water is back down to where it was, and starts to heat up, they will be trapped. The water was so low on the main prior to this release, it would be virtually impossible to get back upstream in a lot of areas.
just my thoughts.
comparadun
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Fly Tier,
You say, "The water was so low on the MS prior to this release, it would be virtually impossible to get back upstream in a lot of areas".
That part of your post is just not true. There was certainly enough water in the MS prior to this release for trout to move wherever they wanted. But they got trapped.....why??... well, just as you stated....elevated water temps. Water temps by the way that have NEVER been this high in a non drought year for as long as we have had the reservoirs............
You say, "The water was so low on the MS prior to this release, it would be virtually impossible to get back upstream in a lot of areas".
That part of your post is just not true. There was certainly enough water in the MS prior to this release for trout to move wherever they wanted. But they got trapped.....why??... well, just as you stated....elevated water temps. Water temps by the way that have NEVER been this high in a non drought year for as long as we have had the reservoirs............
Comparadun,
I wont debate you so if you want me to say you're right and Im wrong along with some of the top trout biologits and scientists in the country, including a top noth habitat scientist from the USGS in Colorado when he explained this exact scenario at a recent FMTAC/SEF meeting I attended, I will do so BUT.... Yo Yo releases regardless of any condition, are extremely harmful to fish for the reasons I stated below. Next time the callicoon gauge is at 600 (probably tuesday) walk the river,. If you want to see the areas, let me know, I will give you a tour of where you can virtually walk across the river and not get your feet wet.
-Larry
ps. when you said "That's why FUDR is fighting for a constant release for the future" I am pretty much aware of that.
I wont debate you so if you want me to say you're right and Im wrong along with some of the top trout biologits and scientists in the country, including a top noth habitat scientist from the USGS in Colorado when he explained this exact scenario at a recent FMTAC/SEF meeting I attended, I will do so BUT.... Yo Yo releases regardless of any condition, are extremely harmful to fish for the reasons I stated below. Next time the callicoon gauge is at 600 (probably tuesday) walk the river,. If you want to see the areas, let me know, I will give you a tour of where you can virtually walk across the river and not get your feet wet.
-Larry
ps. when you said "That's why FUDR is fighting for a constant release for the future" I am pretty much aware of that.
comparadun
..........
Fly Tier,
I AGREE that yo yo releases of any kind are harmful to the fish. I also do have some biological training.
I mainly fish the MS and have been for 25yrs. I know every riff and pool from Hancock to Cochecton. Hey....a flow of 600cfs(river approx at 2.9 ft) is absolutely terrible! ;but,I do not know of ANY places that you could walk across the river and virtually NOT get your feet wet.
You seem quite knowlegable concerning the system, but you have exaggerated a bit on that one.
600cfs IS NOT the killer in this case.....lethal water temps ARE. Respectfully.....CDUN.
I AGREE that yo yo releases of any kind are harmful to the fish. I also do have some biological training.
I mainly fish the MS and have been for 25yrs. I know every riff and pool from Hancock to Cochecton. Hey....a flow of 600cfs(river approx at 2.9 ft) is absolutely terrible! ;but,I do not know of ANY places that you could walk across the river and virtually NOT get your feet wet.
You seem quite knowlegable concerning the system, but you have exaggerated a bit on that one.
600cfs IS NOT the killer in this case.....lethal water temps ARE. Respectfully.....CDUN.
