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A Very Real Threat to Catskill Rivers

Mayfly

Trout Hunter
From Joan Wulff,

"Dear angler and conservationist,

We need your help.

Crossroads Ventures, Ltd., wants to put two eighteen-hole golf courses on a mountaintop in the central Catskills.

And a lot more. The Belleayre Resort at Catskill Park will also include two hotels with 400 rooms, four restaurants, a conference center, a country club, a 21-lot residential subdivision, 351 detached lodging units in 43 buildings, two sewage treatment plants, and 77 football fields worth of impervious surface – just to hit the highlights

During construction 529 acres will be cleared, 86,000 mature trees and 189,000 saplings will be cut, and two million cubic yards of soil will be excavated over a ten-year period.

This will take place at the headwaters of two historic trout rivers: the Esopus creek and the East Branch of the Delaware. Theodore Gordon, A. E. Hendrickson, Jim Payne, Roy Steenrod, Everett Garrison, Preston Jennings and other luminaries from the Catskills heyday fished the Esopus and praised its rainbows, which today are a self-sustaining wild population. The East Branch, as part of the Delaware system, is among our country’s beloved waters.
Two reports commissioned by TU from respected scientists describe significant negative impacts on area streams if the resort complexes are built.

§ TU’s hydrogeologist finds that pumped water withdrawals for golf course irrigation and to supply the three hundred and seventy-six buildings will deplete groundwater supplies, completely depriving a segment of one brook of its baseflow and taking water from the bed of Birch Creek, contrary to the developer’s claims.

§ TU’s aquatic habitat specialist finds that reduction of baseflow, reduction in wetted perimeter, increased water temperatures and modifications of stream morphology will impair aquatic biota, also contrary to the developer’s claims.
Other issues raised by TU include loss of hydrological and biological function in headwater intermittent streams, non-point source pollution from golf-course fertilizer and biocides, and the sub-lethal effects on trout and trout eggs of trace contaminants such as chlorine, ammonia and metals during dry spells, when the water in Birch Creek will largely be sewage effluent.
TU’S ASHOKAN-PEPACTON AND CATSKILL MOUNTAINS CHAPTERS, SUPPORTED BY NEW YORK STATE COUNCIL, HAVE JOINED WITH OTHER GROUPS TO FIGHT THIS MEGA-DEVELOPMENT.
The Catskill Preservation Coalition includes Natural Resources Defense Council, Inc., Friends of Catskill Park, Catskill Heritage Alliance, Catskill Center for Conservation and Development, Pine Hill Water District Coalition, Theodore Gordon Flyfishers, Inc., New York Public Interest Research Group, Zen Environmental Studies Institute, and Riverkeeper, Inc., in addition to the two TU chapters.

A State Environmental Quality Review is currently underway. The next phase is an adjudicary hearing, which will resemble a trial, with attorneys for both sides calling expert witnesses to give testimony and undergo cross-examination. This will be followed by appeals. The entire process is expected to take several years and to be very costly. So far, the fight against Crossroads Ventures has cost more than $250,000 in funds raised, services donated and in-kind contributions including $17,157.00 from the two TU chapters and NY State Council to pay TU’s experts for their services to date. Many thousands more are needed if the coalition not to be defeated through lack of funds.
MANY THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS MORE ARE NEEDED IF WE ARE NOT TO BE DEFEATED THROUGH LACK OF FUNDS.
We appeal to you to give what you can. Protecting the birthplace of American flyfishing and protecting the future of the Catskills are on the line. Contributions are tax-deductible. Your check should be made out to Crossroads Opposition Fund and mailed to Catskill Mountains Chapter TU, Crossroads Opposition Fund, P.O. Box 1487, Kingston NY 12401. Your envelope and stamp will help us defray costs.
Sincerely,
Need to know more? Detailed information about the project’s impacts on area trout streams can be obtained from the reports written by TU’s experts, and from TU’s written public comment. All three documents are available online at http://www.cmtu.org."

*****

Okay you guys. Here's a very real environmental threat to 2 rivers. Forget levels, temps, flood control and reservoir levels for a minute. None of that will matter if the water is contaminated because of the potential of this construction. If it goes through, you might have the best levels, excellent temps, etc. but where will the fish be? You know about all of the claims of 'Fish Kills', even though one has yet to be documented, well this may just do it.

Now, don't bother renewing a discussion about water levels or posting a picture of a dead trout. Means nothing. THIS is what you'd better grab onto and fight for. This is not a matter of 'improving' the fishery. It's a matter of 'saving' the fishery.

Allan
 
Alan,

First question.Where exactly is the proposed site?on the rivers near the rivers?What town?


Joe
 
Everyone is entitled to an "oops". Given the titles of both and the fact that the one was from two years ago, the confusion is understandable. :)
 
Joe T.

I'm not exactly sure where this is located within the 'Catskill Park' other than what's written in the 2nd and 4th paragraph of the Wulff letter. Perhaps someone will be able to find the location on some map and identify it more clearly, in terms of the geographic relationship of the location to the rivers mentioned.

Allan
 
Mayfly said:
Joe T.

I'm not exactly sure where this is located within the 'Catskill Park' other than what's written in the 2nd and 4th paragraph of the Wulff letter. Perhaps someone will be able to find the location on some map and identify it more clearly, in terms of the geographic relationship of the location to the rivers mentioned.

Allan

Alan,

Your asking all of us to come to a "fight" and you dont even know where the "fight" is?Your not even sure what rivers this project may impact.

Just for the record this project would impact Lost Clove Brook and Birch Creek which are second and third order tribs of the Esopus.

If you read the reports put together by the scientists doing the research they clearly indicate that they are not sure what the impact would be without further research.Also even more importantly forget the rivers and the fish its what may happend to the well water of those who live in that community.At least for me the people would come before the trout.

Alan says " Ok you guys. Here's a very real environmental threat to 2 rivers.Forget water levels, temps, flood control and resevoir levels for a minute.Not of that will matter if the water is contaminated from this construction"Why would it matter Alan?The two little streams have nothing to do with the tailwater sections of the rivers you are telling us to forget about.Also read the research there is much more concern over lower water levels than there is contamination.Oh one more thing why would you want anyone to forget about flood control?Is that your opinion or Joan Wulfs?Did you see what happend with the last two floods that occured recently? .Maybe you should have taken a ride to the town of Deer Park where about 150 homes where destroyed from the last flood.Yes people lived in those homes.



Alan says" If this goes through you might have the best levels, excellent temps etc.But where will the fish be?"Alan the fish will be in the same place as they are now in the river.Again what does these two rivers have to do with the tailwater sections of the Delaware?

Alan says" now dont bother renewing a discussion about water levels or posting pictures of dead trout.Means nothing"What exactly do you mean by that?Are you ordering us not to discuss the Delaware issues anymore.Who died and left you boss?Wow reality check time


One more question>For the moment lets say that there where no negative impacts to the community or the 2 streams.Would you be ok with the resort being built?Or is this a tree hugger issue with you?In other words are you more concerned about this project being built than you are about the two streams streams you never fished or even heard of ?
 
This issue has been around for a while now and is important. The project would potentially/probably have a significant impact on the upper Esopus, as it directly impacts a couple of decent feeders where spawning does take place. I'm sure our local TU is heavily involved as they have been in the past with the Esopus issues. Any help is appreciated!!

Bruce
 
It seems odd to me that NYC isn't up in arms over this since it would affect the quality of Pepacton water.
 
Just going on what Joan Wulff states in her letter, that it would effect the headwaters of the East Branch of the Delaware. Then again, if it happens anywhere in the Catskills, it effects NYC water supplies.
 
Joe,

Not to challenge anything you wrote and I understand what you mean.My comments are based on my read of the initial letter from Joan Wulff. As I read it, the rivers that she described as potentially in danger are the Esopus and the East Branch of Delaware. I guess the point I wanted to make about levels, temps,etc was that even if you have excellent visual conditions, or what are generally considered excellent conditions, the fact is that quality water is more important. I have no scientific background and this is just an opinion.You may have an opinion that differs and that's okay. You may have more insight into the actual geography of the project and that's even better. The bottom line that I wanted to point out is that the trout have been able to get by, survive and in some cases even thrive in times of critical situations. However, something like this may lead to disasterous implication. Hopefully more accurate information will be forthcoming and the public will have a chance to voice its concerns that will force certain agencies to require quarantees from those who support the project.

Allan
 
Joe D,

The tribs mentioned do flow into the Esopus, although there would be runoff eventually going into Fleishmann's on the other side, which eventually runs into the EB. This project would probably have a larger effect on the Esopus (clearcutting would probably elevate the water temps in the tribs, among other things).

JoeT,

This would have very little impact, if any, on the tailwater portions of the D, but I don't think that is the point here.

Bruce
 
Last edited:
Bruce,


Beleive me I know it has no impact on the tailwaters.That was not my point either.Since I was being asked to forget about and not discuss the Delaware issues anymore I wanted to know why?

Why should I or anyone else refrain from discussing it anymore? What does the tailwaters have to do with this project? Nothing.

That was part of my point.

Joe.D

I have been thinking the same as you.Where is NYC on this one?The only thing I can come up with is there would be no contamination so they really dont care.

Joe
 
Joe,

You are right. In my initial post for this thread I wrote,

"Forget levels, temps, flood control and reservoir levels for a minute."

I wrote that just to try and keep this thread and discussion focused on the subject and substance of the letter from Joan Wulff.

Allan
 
Bruce,

Thanks for clarifying. To me, it doesn't matter what water it affects, the fact it has a negative effect on any water that is pure enough to harbor a wild fishery says it's a battle worth engaging in.

Joe T.,

I don't see how any large scale development wouldn't have an effect on NYC's drinking water supply. Sewage, runoff, lower water tables and increased demands on the resource have to have an impact.


As quoted from one of TU's studies available at www.cmtu.org :<!--StartFragment -->

"The analysis presented in the DEIS is not convincing, as the non-impact statement can be easily proven wrong using even available data and very conservative scenarios. At a minimum the following impacts can be expected:

• reduction of ground water levels and loss of base flow in adjacent streams,

• increased duration of low flows,

• increased water temperature,

• increased pollution levels, and

• modification of stream morphology.


The biological consequences of these changes would be detrimental to fish fauna, not only causing a reduction of fish densities, but also a shift from a community structure dominated by trout toward one dominated by generalist, warm water species (e.g. bluegill). Convincing proof that this will be avoided has not been provided in DEIS documentation."
 
Joe.D.


I dont disagree with you that there would be a negative impact to the NYC water supply.The question is how negative? Does it affect the water supply to a degree that NYC doesnt care or should I SAY BE CONCERNED If it where that bad than why as you asked isnt NYC up in arms?

I think the negative impact would be seen in the spawning tribs and water levels for local residents much more so than the actual water supply to NYC.IF I am wrong than I am quite sure you will hear about from NYC! :)

Your right if it will hurt or destroy a wild trout stream than I agree a fight is worth it.However I would like to see evidence from both sides first.I am not one who follows the heard of sheep so to speak.I need to understand and really beleive in something before I will engage in a "fight" :indian:

Also I would like to see research done by another group other than TU.

Regards

Joe





Joe.t
 
Joe T,

The Draft Environmental Impact Statement prepared for Crossroads Ventures, LLC can be found at: http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dcs/eisanddp/ExecSumTOC.pdf

Other comments from various organizations can be found at:
http://www.riverkeeper.org/campaign.php/watershed/we_are_doing/1057
http://www.friendsofcatskillpark.org/ maps and aerial photos
http://www.catskillheritage.org/issues/resort/dep.htm NY City's comments.
http://www.belleayreresort.com/ The resort's website
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/news/belleayre.html NYC DEP official review

Joe D.
 
It's a shame that this board sometimes can't see past the tailwaters. The esopus has been in trouble for more than a few years--the courts have ruled that the city has a responsiblity to help clean it up, and the state keeps granting the city temporary permits to keep doing what its been doing.

This project threatens the esopus's headwaters, and the real shame is that part of it involves PUBLIC LANDS. The state trying to use public lands to turn a buck at the expense of a wild trout stream. This board should care.

State Constitution:
Article 3: Section 1. The lands of the state, now owned or hereafter acquired, constituting the forest preserve as now fixed by law, shall be forever kept as wild forest lands. They shall not be leased, sold or exchanged, or be taken by any corporation, public or private, nor shall the timber thereon be sold, removed or destroyed.
 
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