Pumpkinseed/LMB hybrids?!

[upyun]

Lately, I've been catching a few fish that seem to be Pumpkinseed/Largemouth Bass hybrids. They seem to have a Pumpkinseed's facial coloration, but the body and mouth have the characteristics of a largemouth. I'm pretty sure that they won't mature to LMB sizes and will remain "sunfish" sized. But has anyone else seen this phenomenon occur? I've already seen this type of behavior in 2 ponds I frequent.

You can also tell that the LMB and pumpkinseed are mating since the LMB will chase off any other sunfish near its spawning bed besides that one pumpkinseed.

 

[Fly Ty R]

Looks like a common green sunfish to me. Not a hybrid at all.

Green Sunfish

Not saying they don't hybridize, because they are in the same family.

 

[DJ]

No. LMB and sunfish do not interbreed! They are in the sunfish family, but they do not interbreed. What you have there is either a green sunfish (likely), a Robin aka: Redbreast sunfish (least likely) or a robin/greenie hybrid (most likely). Green sunfish have large heads and a large mouth with a lower jaw that extends way back very similar to LMB. In fact they will attack and get 1/4oz cranks and size 1/0 poppers in their mouths!!!!! They are very aggressive and frequent rivers, low gradient streams and med-large ponds generally near creek mouths. Robins (least likely) are very large bream (frequently topping a pound) about the size and shape of redears (shellcrackers) or bluegills but more agrssive and harder fighters. They also frequent rivers streams and some lakes with streams flowing in them. D&R canal is also a great spot for robins! These species will interbreed. The cheek marks and body shape of that fish are characteristic of greenies, but the size and chest color makes me think it may be a robin hybrid. Robins don't have that body shape, they are more like a bluegill in shape, but a larger mouth. The mouth is too big and the body too elongated to be a pumpkin seed. Pumpkin seeds of both sexes also have specks and I don't see any on the breast of that fish. I have seen some very large robins in the Delaware river (not many, but large) and lots of greenies and robins in most of the NJ streams. If I'd had to pick one, I'd hedge and say a greenie or a hybrid. I cannot be too sure from the picture, if you were holding it a little more sideways so I could see the mouth i'd be sure!! :beer:

 

[DJ]

On second thought......... I'm in the greenie club, it looked larger the first time I saw it!

 

[upyun]

Thanks a lot guys! I learn something new everyday when I'm on here! Next time I catch one of these, I'll be sure to take more pics of their mouths. Is there a reason why these specific fish tend school and hang out with LMB then? Cuz the LMB don't seem to mind these sunnies whereas every other sunfish, the bass will chase off.

Brian

 

[DJ]

Oh beleive me the bass will chase them off!!!!! Unlike most bream, these are primarily fish, crayfish eaters and they are hanging just out side of the bass's personal space so to speak waiting for some fry to stray.......... Other bream, with smaller mouths, are trying to rob the nest i.e. eggs!

 

[Steve M]

Calico Bass

 

[Fly Ty R]

Calico bass? That ain't no crappie!!! Unless you are thinking of a different fish??

 

[upyun]

Oh beleive me the bass will chase them off!!!!! Unlike most bream, these are primarily fish, crayfish eaters and they are hanging just out side of the bass's personal space so to speak waiting for some fry to stray.......... Other bream, with smaller mouths, are trying to rob the nest i.e. eggs!

ahh ok, that's makes sense now! Since the fry hadn't hatched yet, I guess the LMB were just being lenient to this breed of sunnies.

I never even knew of Green Sunfish! Since they are only sunnies, I'm kinda ****ed off that I haven't caught every type now!!

Can someone tell me the correct breed of sunnies for each?

 

[upyun]

Calico bass? That ain't no crappie!!! Unless you are thinking of a different fish??

I've attached a few other pics of some LMB, pickerel and a crappie taken with 4lb spinning gear as well (my best friend Sean isn't into FFing so I bring spinning and flyfishing rigs when we go and I use both).

 

[Steve M]

OK, LMB is technically a Sunfish.

Calico Bass is what we used to call those. No, not a Bluegill or Pumkinseed, looks more like a Smallmouth, but with that touch of red by the gills.

 

[DJ]

I LOVE flyfishing for Bream!!!! lets go!!!!!!

Left to right, the first three are pure blue gills! the last three are true pumpkin seeds.

Some hints although bream hydridize quite frequently the following are tips in general for catching and identifying bream in NJ:

Blue gills: Deep bodies, palm size or larger redbrest, blue gill gills with small operculum and stipes (key small black round operculm-that little flap at top of gills and ventral stripes). small mouth Often 3/4 lb and up to 12"

Pumpkinseed: small mouth, deep body small operculum with red trim palm sized or smaller tiny mouth orange-red body with blue-green flecksRarely more than 1/2" or 6"

Redbrest (robin): Deep large body, green upper with bright red chest, elongated operculum medium sized mouth (some cheeck markings). often 3/4 +LB and up to 12"

Greenies: look like elongated robins with a LMB face and pumpkins seed cheek markings. The head/mouth is large in comparison to the body. rarely exceeding palm size. generally 4-6"

Streams with good current and rocks: Green sunfish, Redbreast and rockbass. Bluegills maybe be present in slack water ares and deep pools.

Ponds lakes: pumpkins seeds, bluegills in weedy seections. Large bull bluegills will not school and tend to hangout in deep pools within the "salad" or at the dropoff 4-10 feet down! Thye will often follow bass as they are no longer thhreatened! In some stream fed stillwater with rocky or gravely bottoms you can find greenies and redbreast or near creek mouths and channels.


On the fly: bluegills (small-mid sized) typcially hit poppers and size 10-12 terrestials. Larger bluegills will take larger sized BHnymphs 4-6 feet below a dropper or strike indicator in vegetation pools, around deep water structure or at drop offs (basically where you find LM Bass. Early morning the big boys will take large terrestial deep under over hanging shrubery/trees! Unless spawning the big boyz will not take poppers!!!!! These are like big browns WARY!

Robins: will occasionally take terrestials, almost never poppers. They will attack midsized to large wolly buggers, size 4-6 clousers, crayfish and size 4-6 muddlers!

Greenies: Anything in sight!

Rockbass: are like smallies and inhabit trout/smallies type areas in streams to sillty or warm for SMB or trout. Same as robins, but they will take a popper just outside the current. Want to have fun after a heavy mid summer rain, drift crayfish flies through an off color run!


Thats all I know!

 

[Steve M]

RockBass!!!

That's what I was thinking of!!

Good post DJ! :applaudit

 

[upyun]

I'd defintely go bream fishing with you DJ!~

Dang! So I guess I haven't caught a Robin/Redbrest yet! I'm on a mission now! lol! Plus if they regularly get to 3/4lb to 1lb, they'll put up a good fight! Can anyone recommend where I can catch some Redbreasted sunnies and some Rock bass around the Bergen county area? I've never caught either and they seem to be pretty common (to all you folks) that I should be able to catch them with only a short drive from my home.

The pickerel would have taken clouser minnows sizes 2/0 to 4/0, but with their sharp teeth, I didn't trust them NOT to bite off the thin tippet line.

Brian

 

[rford]

is this the fish?

 

[DJ]

I never said they were common or easy to catch at that size!!!!!! During the spawn on their beds, maybe easier, but the rest of the year absolutely not. Just as people will tell you there are no big browns in a particular stream because they never saw them........ you'll hear the same! I may get 2 or 3 1lb'rs a season in NJ! Bream that size are over 4 years old and have seen every trick in the book! Especially in trout stocked waters where people are marching right accross them to chase trout. Approach them with the same respect you would an old wary bream or bass! Use cover, move slowly, stand on the bank when possible observe the water before you cast and pracitce accuracy to reach the most inaccessible areas most anglers pass up. Less movement or subtle movement is best. Only small aggressive fish attack splashing lures. The first cast is often the only one you get and good a splash could put them down for hours! Go south, and there are more of them that size, but they are just as wary. What you have in your favor is the stealth and presentation of the fly versus conventional gear. Be patient, these fish will often sit and study a lure or follow it for seem like an eternity!

 

[upyun]

Nice Fish, Rford! Is that a crappie? If it is, that's probably the biggest crappie I've ever seen!

DJ - I didn't mean I had to catch them at that size, I just want to put one under the belt even if its a 4incher!