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Post 1001 sorry guys. Emoussa, I couldnt resist!!

MACFLY said:
The reality is that its a mixed bag. But no one should kid themselves. Iraq could be rid of Al Quaeda today. They chose not to extend disposition of forces with the USA. Also the reality is that there was plenty of violence before the invasion. Just ask the kurds. Iraq 10 years from today could be fine if it decides to get its act togeher. Really up to them
MUSINGS ON IRAQ: Life In Iraq Before and After The Invasion
Click to expand...


Mac, I respectfully disagree.

It's not a mixed bag. The only people who have benefited are bomb makers, terrorists and a handful of politicians. Every single Iraqi i've spoken to, regardless of their faith or politics, agree that Iraq is enormously worse off now. Before the invasion, you could of went to Iraq and walked down the streets of Baghdad with no fear. Try doing that now.

I am well aware of what happened to the Kurds. If you threatened Saddams control or had thoughts of breaking off a chunk of his country to form a Kurdish nation, horrible things will happen. That's systematic violence committed by the government. I meant violence like we see now. By citizens and terrorist groups. Suicide bombings as well as your garden variety theft, murder, ect. Those things were not an issue. In Iraq, if you stayed clear of crime, political opinion and spoke nicely of Saddam you were absolutely free to live your life. Education, peace and healthcare were provided. In many ways, they were more free than we are here in Jersey.

Get rid of Al Queda today?? This is a boobish comment Mack. Thats not easy in a country where a significant amount of residents support AQ and affiliates because they are in the middle of a sectarian war. You think American troops are the answer? Thats what attracted them in the first place. Was that the answer in afghanistan were the Taliban are just as present as ever? You cant out muscle these people. They are a reaction. They need justification to exist and operate, i.e Crusader invaders and infidel Shia.

When you say "up to them", who is them exactly? You understand these aren't Americans you are talking about, right? Democracy works when you have people who identify with one another and believe they have a common goal to work towards. There are many different groups of people, many of whom are absolute sworn enemies, living within the borders of this "country" (which were very poorly drawn by the Brits after WW1). The only thing that kept the powder keg from exploding was a crazy man like Saddam. You remove that and you have what we have in Iraq today, a warzone with absolutely no chance.

The only way Iraq will fix itself is by not existing. It will divide into three different nations (kurds, shia and sunni). After that happens they will still be killing each other.
 
MACFLY said:
The reality is that its a mixed bag. But no one should kid themselves. Iraq could be rid of Al Quaeda today. They chose not to extend disposition of forces with the USA. Also the reality is that there was plenty of violence before the invasion. Just ask the kurds. Iraq 10 years from today could be fine if it decides to get its act togeher. Really up to them
MUSINGS ON IRAQ: Life In Iraq Before and After The Invasion
Click to expand...


Listen emoussa I'm pretty clear that our invasion was a huge mistake. But no one should kid themselves that Iraq was a panacea. When I hear things like you could walk down the street and feel safe. Ask them if they were Sunni or Shia. Saddams son had torture chambers throughout the country and folks routinely disappeared only to reappear months later maimed or worse. Also the government had the opportunity to retain forces and chose not to do so. I'm sure the average Iraqi thinks things kind of suck right now but in 5 maybe 10 years they may have a different appearance. The Kurds had been brutalized by saddam for decades.

Iraq has everything they need to recover and become a thriving state in the Middle East. I would say take another look in 10 years. It's normally 20 years before countries brutalized by war can recover.

But just to be clear and I stated This in another post. Iraq was a lesson in the futility of exporting freedom to other countries. Freedom is only possible when you are willing to sacrifice for it yourself.
 
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These people have been war'ing since biblical times and will be war'ing well after we're all gone. SO.... any fishing reports?
 
MACFLY said:
Freedom is only possible when you are willing to sacrifice for it yourself.
Click to expand...


Tell that to the average American. They don't even realize when their rights are being trampled on.

The only way most Americans would get angry is if the government cut off their internet and took away their cell phones. Then they would forget about it in a week.
 
CTobias said:
Tell that to the average American. They don't even realize when their rights are being trampled on.

The only way most Americans would get angry is if the government cut off their internet and took away their cell phones. Then they would forget about it in a week.
Click to expand...

Sad but true few people can appreciate the gift of personal liberty perhaps because it's been handed to them without having to sacrifice for it. Which is why it's no surprise they are not paying closer attention to them being taken away.
 
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