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    Reservoirs all spilling

    Hey Jim

    Any idea if and when they will increase the releases, Especially on the WB? All 3 are spilling but the west is at about 2700 cfs at Stilesville and I believe the release was 700 cfs so 2000 is spilling.

    The temp at Stilesville is 65! which as you know rarely see's 50.I know even if we release 1500 we'll still have at least 1200 over the top but Walton is dropping.

    The Dorotheas and Invarias are in a tailspin right now with such a jump in water temps.

    Thanks

    Joe.T

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    golden beetle (07-02-2015)

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    Re: Reservoirs all spilling

    Hi Joe,

    Things aren't quite as dire as you make it sound. The Stilesville gauge is on the spill side of the river. The WB has not mixed with the release yet. If you notice the temps at Hale Eddy are quite a bit lower. By the time the river reaches the Hale Eddy Gauge we have complete mixing of spill and release.

    Certainly something to keep an eye on. If we get a day with full sun, the top of the reservoir will warm considerably and the temp difference will be even greater.

    According to the FFMP tables we should ramp up to a release of 1500 on the WB. Personally, I am okay with leaving the release where it is and saving that wonderful cold clear stuff for a hot day in August.

    Unless we get another deluge, the other two reservoirs will stop spilling in the next day or so.

    Living on the river, this is a time when I start to get a bit nervous. With the WB spilling there is no buffer should we get another big storm.

    WB peaked at about 3500 the other day.

    15000 and it approaches our basement.

    18000 and it gets in the basement

    22000 and we have about a foot in the basement

    In 2006 we hit 45000!!! There was 5 feet in the basement.

    Reports of nice streamer fishing!!!!

    Jim


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    Rusty Spinner (07-03-2015)

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    Re: Reservoirs all spilling

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Spinner View Post
    In 2006 we hit 45000!!! There was 5 feet in the basement.
    Reports of nice streamer fishing!!!!
    Jim-
    Do you find the best streamer fishing tight to the basement walls, or do you cast to the open areas in the middle of the basement?


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    Re: Reservoirs all spilling

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Spinner View Post
    According to the FFMP tables we should ramp up to a release of 1500 on the WB. Personally, I am okay with leaving the release where it is and saving that wonderful cold clear stuff for a hot day in August.
    Jim, if you or anyone else knows, given that it is already early July, wouldn't we have ample cold water to get us all the way through the warm last two months of summer? I don't know those tiny details, but seems to me with such minimal releases this year to date and a full/spilling Cannonsville reservoir that we would have ample cold water from now through Labor Day even if we didn't see another drop of rain between now and then(?). I worry more when the city releases lots of cold water in May and June which they didn't do this year. Curious if we know or can guesstimate?

    A sinking fly is closer to Hell - ​Unknown

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    Re: Reservoirs all spilling

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Spinner View Post
    Hi Joe,

    Things aren't quite as dire as you make it sound. The Stilesville gauge is on the spill side of the river. The WB has not mixed with the release yet. If you notice the temps at Hale Eddy are quite a bit lower. By the time the river reaches the Hale Eddy Gauge we have complete mixing of spill and release.

    Certainly something to keep an eye on. If we get a day with full sun, the top of the reservoir will warm considerably and the temp difference will be even greater.

    According to the FFMP tables we should ramp up to a release of 1500 on the WB. Personally, I am okay with leaving the release where it is and saving that wonderful cold clear stuff for a hot day in August.

    Unless we get another deluge, the other two reservoirs will stop spilling in the next day or so.

    Living on the river, this is a time when I start to get a bit nervous. With the WB spilling there is no buffer should we get another big storm.

    WB peaked at about 3500 the other day.

    15000 and it approaches our basement.

    18000 and it gets in the basement

    22000 and we have about a foot in the basement

    In 2006 we hit 45000!!! There was 5 feet in the basement.

    Reports of nice streamer fishing!!!!

    Jim
    Hi Jim,

    I didn't think my question was dire, dire was when I almost died on the main stem last year.

    I personally don't see how releasing 1500 from the bottom gives away any water?

    In other words if water is coming over the top or the bottom its the same volume coming into the river ??.It also doesn't change how much is coming in from Walton.

    I know how water mixes down stream, my point is why have 65 degrees in Stilesville and the no kill and SCREW UP the hatches and the summer fishing.

    It's about the fishery, and rusty is correct we have plenty of water for the summer now.

    If FFMP says ramp it to 1500 CFS than ramp it up and own up to the agreement that they made.


    I'm just sayin.


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    Re: Reservoirs all spilling

    Hi Joe,

    If bottom release and spill were of the same quality, I would agree with you, but they ARE NOT!!

    Bottom release is cold and clear. This is water that settled all winter long and is of the highest quality for the river. So, I say, let the reservoir spill the warmer stuff and get rid of it and keep the cold clear stuff for release later this summer.

    Lately people have complained about how the WB releases turn dirty later in the summer. This happens when we run out of the cold clear stuff and all of the water below the thermocline is used up.

    If we hold back the 1500 cfs release and keep it to 500-700, we may be able to have cold clear water right into October.

    Jim


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    Re: Reservoirs all spilling

    Quote Originally Posted by FIN-ITE 34 View Post
    Jim-
    Do you find the best streamer fishing tight to the basement walls, or do you cast to the open areas in the middle of the basement?
    At that level the fish will be tight to the banks. Try bouncing one off the wall. Sometimes they react to the noise on instinct

    "Angling is extremely time consuming. That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane

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    Re: Reservoirs all spilling

    Hi Rusty,

    I just spent 20 minutes preparing a reply to you and when I went to send it, I had been logged off of the site and all was lost. This has happened before, I will need to talk to Dennis about it. Maybe a "quick reply" does not give you so much time before logging off.

    Here you go with not as much analysis.

    Peter and I have been working on the reservoirs issues by treating the water in the reservoir as an inventory.

    The good quality cold clear water below the thermocline is known as the hypolimnion.

    A late spring tends to create a shallower thermocline and results in a larger hypolimnion.

    Cannonsville holds 96 billion gallons of water.

    Typically there will be about 60 bg of water in the hypolimnion.

    Of that, NYC diverts some to the city. Maybe 20 bg.

    So that leaves us with 40 bg of the good cold clear stuff.

    A 500 cfs release for 24 hours is roughly 1/3 of a bg gallons of water.

    So we could run 500 cfs for 120 days and we will use up our inventory of the good stuff.

    What happens when we use it up? You may ask.

    The result is the second most complained about problem (temperatures at number one) is that in late summer the releases get really dirty. This happens when the hypolimnion is used up and thermocline water is released. This has sediment and probably photosynthetic byproducts in it too.

    We can look back at two different situations.

    In a year of high water, the 1500 cfs "spill mitigation" releases use up the hypolimnion and we get the dirty water starting in August.

    In a low water year, the directed releases of 1000+ cfs will also use up the hypolimnion and we get dirty releases.

    There is a good balance here somewhere.

    How would you all manage our cold water inventory of 40 bg?

    A 500 cfs release will last for 120 days

    A 1000 cfs release will last for 60 days

    A 1500 cfs release will last for 40 days. (38.8 bg) This is why I hate the high spill mitigation releases.

    jim


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    Re: Reservoirs all spilling

    Hi Joe,

    One other item to ponder.

    There is not a direct relationship between spill and release.

    you state that a 2700 cfs flow at Stilesville is 2000 spill and 700 release.

    and if you release 1500, the spill would become 1200.

    This dos not happen.

    If you increase the release to 1500:

    The spill will still be about 2000, but the amount of spill will decrease more rapidly.

    Perhaps some physics person can tell us how this happens!!

    Jim


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    Re: Reservoirs all spilling

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Spinner View Post
    How would you all manage our cold water inventory of 40 bg?

    A 500 cfs release will last for 120 days

    A 1000 cfs release will last for 60 days

    A 1500 cfs release will last for 40 days. (38.8 bg) This is why I hate the high spill mitigation releases.

    jim
    Thanks, Jim. I know all the technical mumbo jumbo but not the amount of cold water and that was a great help. To answer your question and comment on something else, I would manage the cold water releases for parts of May into late August most years if I were in charge (which I'm obviously not). You mentioned "we could have cold water right until October", but we all know that September and October air temps won't ever require that late a run of bottom releases. Me? I'd rather see it when it does the most good for the trout which is as early as May and not beyond Labor Day.

    A sinking fly is closer to Hell - ​Unknown

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    Re: Reservoirs all spilling

    Of course all that warm water over the top could and should have been cool clean releases in May when the reservoirs were almost full and at normal levels. But NO....

    "That wasn't your fly... was it?

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    Re: Reservoirs all spilling

    Quote Originally Posted by NJFred View Post
    Of course all that warm water over the top could and should have been cool clean releases in May when the reservoirs were almost full and at normal levels. But NO....
    Fred, you need a few more ooooo's in NO for that John Belushi skit.


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