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  1. #13
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    Re: ="Troubled Promise - Little Oversight - Looming Problems"

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Spinner View Post
    PA is seen by states like NJ as the wild west, in fact that's just the name we use when describing your state. PA's enforcement and oversight divisions pale by comparison to this state. Those I work with in river restoration and dam removals as well as friends who develop land in PA just to name a few areas where PADEP is involved, tell me it is far easier in PA due to what some see as lax rules with little or no oversight on projects. Not so for most other northeast states. I'm not sure to what extent being a Commonwealth affects that(?). My guess is this would tend to be the trend throughout that agency, and gas drilling permitting and oversight would not be any more intrusive into the private sector than the other divisions within PADEP are. When you're removing lots of old, obsolete small dams and you have some experience, running loose and fast is generally OK, but I'm not sure I want that approach when they're drilling on my neighbor's property that is uphill from my place if you know what I mean.
    I have a strong feeling & indication that what I highlighted is at least part the reason the PFBC saw the need to step up and really establish it's own inspection/enforcement division regarding this gas drilling. PADEP just doesn't have enough inspectors for proper oversight on many industries it regulates, but that's just one of several reasons they fall short and are inadequate in many instances with their regulation.

    Just in my own dealings regarding the Bushkill's dewatering and the quarry/sinkholes issue I've seen the lack of oversight (and flatout lack of knowledge & involvement on specific local issues) from PADEP. On the quarry issue I've actually come to have more respect for the quarry operators and managers than I do the PADEP personnel we've dealt with.

    TU Life Member, Forks of the Delaware Chapter

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    "Where the air's a little cleaner, the trees a little greener and the road don't go through your town."

  2. #14
    Bob K. is offline Fishizzle, I use worms but I'm looking to upgrade!
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    Re: ="Troubled Promise - Little Oversight - Looming Problems"

    Here is a letter to the editor of the Citizen's Voice today:

    Skrapits, editorial excellent on subject of gas fracking - Letters - Citizens Voice

    And an article on how much money can be made from businesses associated with Drilling:

    At drilling sites, business is good - News - Citizens Voice

    Cordially,
    Bob K.

    PS: Today's paper is loaded with good articles on this! They should get a Pulitzer Prize for this series! Here is another one from today's issue:

    http://citizensvoice.com/news/murky-future-1.860259

    Note in the next to last paragraph that the royalties this one person gets from the gas well on her property aren't enough to cover her expenses for the water she now has to buy for drinking and washing and bathing! Too bad the pictures in the article aren't in the on-line edition or you could see how intrusive and ugly these sites are!


  3. #15
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    Re: ="Troubled Promise - Little Oversight - Looming Problems"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob K. View Post
    Too bad the pictures in the article aren't in the on-line edition or you could see how intrusive and ugly these sites are!
    Intrusive? Would you have rathered they sell off an acre or two to an outta towner to put up a cabin or a second home? Or 5 different lots? Now THAT would be intrusive as well as a permanant harmer of the environment for sure.

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

  4. #16
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    Re: ="Troubled Promise - Little Oversight - Looming Problems"

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Fanatic View Post
    Intrusive? Would you have rathered they sell off an acre or two to an outta towner to put up a cabin or a second home? Or 5 different lots? Now THAT would be intrusive as well as a permanant harmer of the environment for sure.
    I think you're going to lose most of us with that analogy. Even if said well was perfectly safe, you can't compare a cabin along the river with a gas/oil derrick that juts up in the sky with noisy tractor trailers driving to and from all day and night and the related noise from the rig as well as heavy traffic. Yes, any development will cause some negatives to the environment, but we can't equate a new cabin along the river now and then with thousands of gas drilling rigs popping up all over the region.

    A sinking fly is closer to Hell - ​Unknown

  5. #17
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    Re: ="Troubled Promise - Little Oversight - Looming Problems"

    For an idea on how safe this is, please see Moshannon State Forest gas well explosion.

    TU Life Member, Forks of the Delaware Chapter

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  6. #18
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    Re: ="Troubled Promise - Little Oversight - Looming Problems"

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Spinner View Post
    I think you're going to lose most of us with that analogy. Even if said well was perfectly safe, you can't compare a cabin along the river with a gas/oil derrick that juts up in the sky with noisy tractor trailers driving to and from all day and night and the related noise from the rig as well as heavy traffic. Yes, any development will cause some negatives to the environment, but we can't equate a new cabin along the river now and then with thousands of gas drilling rigs popping up all over the region.
    In just ONE county, Sullivan County, where many are contesting gas exploration, over the last ten years or so there has been an average of about 500 new buildings each year. We are not talking about a "new cabin now and then". A gas well has all the noise and truck traffic for a few months, and then more than likely a couple of quiet pipes stick out of the reclaimed ground for twenty years. Those ten thousand new buildings over the same time period have all of their driveways, car traffic, lawn fertilizers, pesticides, (water use and wastewater too), etc., forever.

    If these people who own land need the gas money to KEEP their land from development... well we KNOW that sub-dividing and development sucks for the environment for sure, we also know that gas drilling MIGHT suck if things go wrong.

    Of course no one wants gas drilling to cause environmental damage and no one WANTS the environment to suffer any more than it has to for ANY reason, but do you want to see more development in the region because people sell their land to developers? This is what is obviously, in part, happening in Sullivan County, headwaters to many streams that flow into the D, RIGHT NOW.

    Again, which is MORE intrusive... I guess for many who live in the 'burbs having buildings in the Catskill region(or any rural area for that matter) is OK.

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

  7. #19
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    Re: ="Troubled Promise - Little Oversight - Looming Problems"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan R View Post
    For an idea on how safe this is, please see Moshannon State Forest gas well explosion.
    Yes, accidents happen...

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    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

  8. #20
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    Re: ="Troubled Promise - Little Oversight - Looming Problems"

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Fanatic View Post
    In just ONE county, Sullivan County, where many are contesting gas exploration, over the last ten years or so there has been an average of about 500 new buildings each year. We are not talking about a "new cabin now and then". A gas well has all the noise and truck traffic for a few months, and then more than likely a couple of quiet pipes stick out of the reclaimed ground for twenty years. Those ten thousand new buildings over the same time period have all of their driveways, car traffic, lawn fertilizers, pesticides, (water use and wastewater too), etc., forever.

    If these people who own land need the gas money to KEEP their land from development... well we KNOW that sub-dividing and development sucks for the environment for sure, we also know that gas drilling MIGHT suck if things go wrong.

    Of course no one wants gas drilling to cause environmental damage and no one WANTS the environment to suffer any more than it has to for ANY reason, but do you want to see more development in the region because people sell their land to developers? This is what is obviously, in part, happening in Sullivan County, headwaters to many streams that flow into the D, RIGHT NOW.

    Again, which is MORE intrusive... I guess for many who live in the 'burbs having buildings in the Catskill region(or any rural area for that matter) is OK.
    Drilling is more intrusive and with a much higher risk than planned development within a given watershed. As a river restoration specialist, give me storm water, sewer, pesticide and impervious surface issues all day over a single spill of fracing fluid. One is the death of the watershed by a thousand cuts, but that can be remediated to acceptable levels where clean water is concerned. The other when it happens - a spill into a river or contaminated wells - is a deal closer. Game over. Go home. Depending on what is leaking, how much and from where the river may one day recover in our lifetimes and then maybe not. I can undo a poorly performing sewer plant or deal with storm water when a new building complex goes into the watershed.

    Thank God I don't live within the Marcellus Shale region. And I'm not sure what you, FF, have against those who own second homes? This is still America and last I checked it was OK to succeed in life and sometimes that means buying yourself a fishing cabin on a nice river you can escape to from time to time. Won't happen to me, but it has to some buddies and good for them! You should be happy, more gas you can sell to them when they're in town...

    A sinking fly is closer to Hell - ​Unknown

  9. #21
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    Re: ="Troubled Promise - Little Oversight - Looming Problems"

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Fanatic View Post
    In just ONE county, Sullivan County, where many are contesting gas exploration, over the last ten years or so there has been an average of about 500 new buildings each year. We are not talking about a "new cabin now and then". A gas well has all the noise and truck traffic for a few months, and then more than likely a couple of quiet pipes stick out of the reclaimed ground for twenty years. Those ten thousand new buildings over the same time period have all of their driveways, car traffic, lawn fertilizers, pesticides, (water use and wastewater too), etc., forever.

    If these people who own land need the gas money to KEEP their land from development... well we KNOW that sub-dividing and development sucks for the environment for sure, we also know that gas drilling MIGHT suck if things go wrong.

    Of course no one wants gas drilling to cause environmental damage and no one WANTS the environment to suffer any more than it has to for ANY reason, but do you want to see more development in the region because people sell their land to developers? This is what is obviously, in part, happening in Sullivan County, headwaters to many streams that flow into the D, RIGHT NOW.

    Again, which is MORE intrusive... I guess for many who live in the 'burbs having buildings in the Catskill region(or any rural area for that matter) is OK.
    More development??? Where? Future86 is coming alot sooner than we think.

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  10. #22
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    Re: ="Troubled Promise - Little Oversight - Looming Problems"

    Quote Originally Posted by dcabarle View Post
    More development??? Where? Future86 is coming alot sooner than we think.
    I believe it was a "connected" fly fisherman from NYC who thought 17 needed to be upgraded who got the ball rolling on that(the trip just took too damn long).

    Actually, I believe it was an intern for the late Senator Moynihan who did a little thinking and found that NY could save a bunch of money if it upgraded a State road (17) to a Federal road (I86). Make everyone pay for it instead of just NYers...

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

  11. #23
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    Re: ="Troubled Promise - Little Oversight - Looming Problems"

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Fanatic View Post
    In just ONE county, Sullivan County, where many are contesting gas exploration, over the last ten years or so there has been an average of about 500 new buildings each year. We are not talking about a "new cabin now and then". A gas well has all the noise and truck traffic for a few months, and then more than likely a couple of quiet pipes stick out of the reclaimed ground for twenty years. Those ten thousand new buildings over the same time period have all of their driveways, car traffic, lawn fertilizers, pesticides, (water use and wastewater too), etc., forever.

    If these people who own land need the gas money to KEEP their land from development... well we KNOW that sub-dividing and development sucks for the environment for sure, we also know that gas drilling MIGHT suck if things go wrong.

    Of course no one wants gas drilling to cause environmental damage and no one WANTS the environment to suffer any more than it has to for ANY reason, but do you want to see more development in the region because people sell their land to developers? This is what is obviously, in part, happening in Sullivan County, headwaters to many streams that flow into the D, RIGHT NOW.

    Again, which is MORE intrusive... I guess for many who live in the 'burbs having buildings in the Catskill region(or any rural area for that matter) is OK.
    With such a boom to the economy and all the jobs created it is inevitable that residential and commercial real estate development would be quick to follow.

    "I think I fish, in part, because it's an anti-social, bohemian business that, when gone about properly, puts you forever outside the mainstream culture without actually landing you in an institution." John Gierach

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  12. #24
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    Re: ="Troubled Promise - Little Oversight - Looming Problems"

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe D View Post
    With such a boom to the economy and all the jobs created it is inevitable that residential and commercial real estate development would be quick to follow.
    I agree in part.

    Hopefully, all the rental properties that are vacant will be filled and the abandoned homes, too. All the homes that are for sale NOW should fill some of the need. The empty factories and storefronts should also fill some of the need. I think in the beginning that many of the jobs in the actual completion of wells will be workers from areas of the country where the folks have experience in the field. I hope though that the companies will tap into the glut of people in the area who are un/under employed, over time. THEY have places to live already.

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

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