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Mr. Cahill and the Sulphurs

Dr Traver one of the leading authors of the biology of a mayfly 1935 does state tail size in her 1933 description on the female pudicum larva. No other descriptions state tail size for that species that I can find and currently have over 400 species manuals;

pudicum for larva;

Body size for female; 12-14 mm
Tails for female larva; 18-20 mm

Generally in most Heptageniidae the tails lengthen as they molt from subimago or dun, to the imago state being a spinner. Most have a average tail length between 22-24 mm for a male.

I know from my own personally study of the vicarium complex that,
(M vicarium), (M vicarium / rivulicolum), and (M vicarium / fuscum)

and they all have tails that are 22 mm. In that study I reared 67 males and 173 females to the adult stage from larva for that complex. The female adults all had tails that were 20 mm on average. So because a "true vicarium" male has a body length of 16 mm and a tail length of 23 mm on average that makes the tails about 1 5/8 X the length of the body. From what I can find M pudicum male is 14 mm in body size with a likely tail length of 24 mm.

So without going crazy with the math that would be just shy of 2 X the length of the body. Without measuring we all tend to over estimate the size of things whether its a bug or the lock-ness monster, its just part of being the species that we are. However I do agree that in the pudicum photo the tails look very long to long to be M vicarium.


All I can say is this.

I am currently writing a book on the genus Stenacron and have spent the last 3 years 12 -16 hrs a day, 7 days a week, with no days off studying this genus and for sure 1000% the other one is Stenacron Carolina!!! And the suspected pudicum is 100000000000% not a Stenacron. I have in the past 3 years looked at over 500+ Stenacron samples in all stages I know them like I know my family. Right now I have a fish tank running right beside me with about 70 Stenacron larva alive and looking at me while type right now. I have in solution well over 200 larva to dissect the winter. Trust me the dark one is not a Stenacron.




Like I stated before with dissection this is all just speculation.







 

Without measuring we all tend to over estimate the size of things whether its a bug or the lock-ness monster, its just part of being the species that we are.

Now hold your horses right there Canada boy... :)

Get out you guyses favorite north of the border measuring device, the millimeter stick, and check out that first photo of the "pudicum". Of course the measurement will not be accurate, but measure the body and multiply by three. THAT is how long the "top" tail is (and I even "cut off" the end of it in the photo).

On my screen, the body is 31mm and the tail(measured to the edge of the photo) is 97mm. So, at the LEAST(because it's cut off in the photo) it's 3.13X

The second photo, the "Carolina"--- on my screen, the body (curve included) is 40mm and the tail is 135mm. This one is 3.375X

Don't you think it odd that two different species of bugs found at the same time at the same place have ridiculously long tails? So long, that it's not described in any literature that an EXPERT(and I think you are, by the way) is familiar with?





Like I stated before with dissection this is all just speculation.


Next May-June, is there any way to ship a few to you?
 
I would love samples especially the carolina.

Ask Kurt = ENTOMAN on trout nut what he feels about the pudicum sample. The carolina we have that one figured out. He knows maccaffertium like a master, and what ever he says it is,, is good enough 4 me.

Thank you about your expert comment

 
I would love samples especially the carolina.

Ask Kurt = ENTOMAN on trout nut what he feels about the pudicum sample. The carolina we have that one figured out. He knows maccaffertium like a master, and what ever he says it is,, is good enough 4 me.

Thank you about your expert comment


I sent a message to Entoman.
Thanks for your patience with me.
So we've got half a year to work out the details, but what's the best way to preserve a sample for you and how do we get the border authorities to NOT blow a gasket when I ship it?
 
We have to real on some luck with stuff crossing the boarder. I will hook you up with Stenacron ecology in a video My son and I did on a new species I am working with right now. Stenacron are very specific about where and how they live. Just copy and paste this youtube link to see it.

I totally do not mind this is fun

[link]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbSmSg6hQLg&feature=share[/link]


Dude...I gotta say....great video, but I am going to call you a geek, in particular a bug geek......not an insult, a respectful poke.....:)
Keep up the postings and here is one, an easy one, but I live in polluted New Jersey so, pretty cool....


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Funny, I took this picture in my kitchen....
 

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I totally take as a complement. So I am like the only bug guy here on this site ???


These guys are not really my knowledge strong point but I will go with
(Siphlonurus quebecensis or S alternatus) the gray drakes and most likely
S quebecensis

[h=1][/h]
 


I totally take as a complement. So I am like the only bug guy here on this site ???


These guys are not really my knowledge strong point but I will go with
(Siphlonurus quebecensis or S alternatus) the gray drakes and most likely
S quebecensis


FF is one of our resident bug nerds, but I think you've found that out already..
 
I love PA and would love to visit it again I lived near Lewisburg for years. I would love to take you up on that offer but I don't have a Canadian passport at this time. So if I cross the boarded I can't come back. The most important feature is like "YOU" said the eye spacing and that they are both spinners.

So tell me why in the yellow carolina, the eyes are very wide spread, and the pudicum they are tight, but both are in the last 12 hours of their life span ????

The eyes on the Carolina are spread wide apart due to inbreeding. That's what happens. There's a lot of that going on down there in the Carolina's. Look at this specimen:

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It's still a human but I think the type is still up in the air.
 

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Dr Traver one of the leading authors of the biology of a mayfly 1935 does state tail size in her 1933 description on the female pudicum larva. No other descriptions state tail size for that species that I can find and currently have over 400 species manuals;

pudicum for larva;

Body size for female; 12-14 mm
Tails for female larva; 18-20 mm

Generally in most Heptageniidae the tails lengthen as they molt from subimago or dun, to the imago state being a spinner. Most have a average tail length between 22-24 mm for a male.

I know from my own personally study of the vicarium complex that,
(M vicarium), (M vicarium / rivulicolum), and (M vicarium / fuscum)

and they all have tails that are 22 mm. In that study I reared 67 males and 173 females to the adult stage from larva for that complex. The female adults all had tails that were 20 mm on average. So because a "true vicarium" male has a body length of 16 mm and a tail length of 23 mm on average that makes the tails about 1 5/8 X the length of the body. From what I can find M pudicum male is 14 mm in body size with a likely tail length of 24 mm.

So without going crazy with the math that would be just shy of 2 X the length of the body. Without measuring we all tend to over estimate the size of things whether its a bug or the lock-ness monster, its just part of being the species that we are. However I do agree that in the pudicum photo the tails look very long to long to be M vicarium.


All I can say is this.

I am currently writing a book on the genus Stenacron and have spent the last 3 years 12 -16 hrs a day, 7 days a week, with no days off studying this genus and for sure 1000% the other one is Stenacron Carolina!!! And the suspected pudicum is 100000000000% not a Stenacron. I have in the past 3 years looked at over 500+ Stenacron samples in all stages I know them like I know my family. Right now I have a fish tank running right beside me with about 70 Stenacron larva alive and looking at me while type right now. I have in solution well over 200 larva to dissect the winter. Trust me the dark one is not a Stenacron.




Like I stated before with dissection this is all just speculation.







I think you're wasting a lot of valuable quality time writing this book that probably won't get past the exit door in any book store brave enough to carry such a creature.

The bug stuff in interesting for as long as it takes me to tie one on.
 


I totally take as a complement. So I am like the only bug guy here on this site ???


These guys are not really my knowledge strong point but I will go with
(Siphlonurus quebecensis or S alternatus) the gray drakes and most likely
S quebecensis


I thought it was a Quill Gordon(Epeorus pleuralis).....as I get them every year around the same time, from a small creek out my front door....this was a female, obviously, but I also get them males and their Frank Poncharello sunglasses give them away....:)
 
Actually this book is the first of it kind. Yes it will have all the taxonomic information and biology reading. But, It will also have very simple sort descriptions for even a child to read using words like face and head. More important are the illustrations for everything, with red arrows pointing to everything important. The idea is the reading is optional. It will be so easy to use a 6 year old can look at the picture and then pick the one that matches it, and bang you just ID a bug. The idea is anybody who has and interest no matter your age or education, or level of interest can pick a winner. The entire book is mostly illustrations in color of every bug in the genus in all stages. Also this book does not state species rather it is on the different forms. By not stating species and directing the reader to where they will find the current species status, the book will never go out of date. Finding species from form is an inevitable course of events. Form or type of bug in the genus validates species status.

As the readers interest and experience level goes up they can choose to start reading the more complex stuff. With all the crapping environmentally issues we face today!! tomorrow they will be worse. Trying to encourage our youth to have interest in insects is important. All insects are the keystone foundation of the entire animal kingdom. All insect are right in the middle of the food chain. But most importantly they eat and breakdown all micro organisms and turn them into proteins. Without them nothing would exist.

Here is a real example and tell me if there is a difference between them. This is about comparing apples to apples, and not apples to oranges. I bet you can see the difference. Well guess what without them side by side some of the best in the world cant tell them apart. I have confused the two so many times. Now I know them like my own family.


conjunctum.jpgnormal proximum.jpg









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I thought it was a Quill Gordon(Epeorus pleuralis).....as I get them every year around the same time, from a small creek out my front door....this was a female, obviously, but I also get them males and their Frank Poncharello sunglasses give them away....:)

Epeorus require fast moving colds water with most importantly very levels of oxygen. But is your little creek is a spring, fast moving and all season. If so then Epeorus could be there. Epeorus are so fragile. Keeping them alive in a bucket for more than 2 hours to bring home is very hard to do. Every time I try to bring larva home alive more than 90% are dead in 2 hours.
 
Epeorus require fast moving colds water with most importantly very levels of oxygen. But is your little creek is a spring, fast moving and all season. If so then Epeorus could be there. Epeorus are so fragile. Keeping them alive in a bucket for more than 2 hours to bring home is very hard to do. Every time I try to bring larva home alive more than 90% are dead in 2 hours.
Yes..I aware of that. .it is very fast...small...and very clean.....it flows into C1TP waters.......like I said...I get male Gordon's also and they are unmistakable. ...
 
Epeorus pleuralis Quill Gordon, would be my first throw at it. The median femora markings also align with it. Tight set eyes and pointed frontale shelf are very suggestive of it.
 
We have to real on some luck with stuff crossing the boarder. I will hook you up with Stenacron ecology in a video My son and I did on a new species I am working with right now. Stenacron are very specific about where and how they live. Just copy and paste this youtube link to see it.

I totally do not mind this is fun

So, I don't like depending on luck.

Do you know if anything has been done with mayfly DNA?

I ask because I know a guy who runs a genetics lab.

I have not approached him yet because I don't know enough to ask the right questions.

See, I could capture a dark one and a light one.
He could do the DNA test.
Of course the DNA would be different due to the fact that they are two separate individuals, but I don't know if he would he be able to tell if they are the same species. If there was anyone doing work with mayflies, this may help him to figure out how close bugs of different (or the same) species are.
You know what I mean?

Anyway, I thought the DNA thing might be interesting...
 
DNA is a viable solution. Jeff Webb and 20 other authors together did a huge DNA profile study paper in 2013. I believe if I read that paper correct some 470 something Stenacron alone were sampled. I think in total they sampled and cataloged almost 5000 different mayfly species worldwide. All the bar-code information and more is available at this website call BOLD SYSTEMS. They have a online museum database that you can use to.


BOLD Systems: Taxonomy Browser - Maccaffertium {genus}
 
So, I don't like depending on luck.

Do you know if anything has been done with mayfly DNA?

I ask because I know a guy who runs a genetics lab.

I have not approached him yet because I don't know enough to ask the right questions.

See, I could capture a dark one and a light one.
He could do the DNA test.
Of course the DNA would be different due to the fact that they are two separate individuals, but I don't know if he would he be able to tell if they are the same species. If there was anyone doing work with mayflies, this may help him to figure out how close bugs of different (or the same) species are.
You know what I mean?

Anyway, I thought the DNA thing might be interesting...

This would be a monumental task. You'd have to know what you were looking for, I don't think you could just throw-up 2 mayfly genomes and look for differences. You'd also need a library where someone has done this already and has mapped out which sequences determine which characteristics and use this for comparison and control purposes.
 
That is all available at bold systems the DNA genetic mapping is completed as of 2013 they spent 3 1/2 years doing it and I believe there was 25 authors on that paper.
 
​I believe I can likely answer why the tails on you carolina area so long. But here is the million dollar questions for you.

1; what is the elevation from sea level where you are ????

2; what color is the substraight of the water, Dark, Medium,
or very pale light ???


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My guess is, the substraight is darkish chocolate brown :)
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I have recently made a monumental discovery on Stenacron. There are NO HYBRIDS they are biogeographical and glaciation variants that are traceable, and I am studying them right now in real time.

My isolated rearing plan of 1 on 1 rearing has created irrefutable evidence of morphological adaptation to specific substrates, and it is a genetic profile to each small area of substraight. The adults deposit eggs right where they hatch so the maculation profile is directly passed on, to that embryo, for that space in the stream or river. They even modify their physiology of their mouthparts to the conditions and local diet.


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​I believe I can likely answer why the tails on you carolina area so long. But here is the million dollar questions for you.

1; what is the elevation from sea level where you are ????

2; what color is the substraight of the water, Dark, Medium,
or very pale light ???



1. Those guys came outta the same stream at 1480+/- feet above sea level.
2. Stones and gravel consist mainly of dark grey shales; the silt/sediment is primarily light brown clay.
 
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