Welcome to NEFF

Sign up for a new account today, or log on with your old account!

Give us a try!

Welcome back to the new NEFF. Take a break from Twitter and Facebook. You don't go to Dicks for your fly fishing gear, you go to your local fly fishing store. Enjoy!

Mr. Cahill and the Sulphurs

lightenup

A fan of Boobery
There are some great little streams near the McD's I work at......... The light if the drive thru window draws in the hatches.......
Here is this evenings sample
Mostly sulphursdrive thru window.jpgbut a guest appearance from Mr. Midge..look at the two dropped egg sacks..midge.jpg





This is a sulphur in the wrong place...she needs to get back to the crick and lay them eggs

sulphur.jpg



and here is, who I believe is Mr. Light Cahill Spinner....but I may be wrong.......do tell if I am

Mr. Cahill.jpg
 
That bottom picture is awesome..

I experienced a decent small and large golden stonefly hatch on a small wts after work...I thought it was too late for them?? I assumed the small ones were Sulphurs at first until I caught one.
 
Found this guy on the lower Musky yesterday....

Light Cahill spinner on Musky.jpg

We also had sulphur spinners about all day (invarias) over the riffles, but I left long before any spinner fall later yesterday evening.
 
Forget these entomology pictures

photo 1 (3).jpg
photo 5 (1).jpg
The coloration on the breast of these rainbows is crazy. I'm not sure you could call this a double bow

photo 4 (1).jpg
photo 2 (3).jpg
I had to throw a couple more ugly rainbows in this post

photo 2 (2).jpg
Landed this on 6x...from an unstocked trib to the Delaware. No idea where it came from, but had beautifully-spotted fins and fought like hell.

photo 3 (2).jpg
This fish was re-visited. It kicked my ass by taking me out to my backing during higher flows in our first encounter. I swore it was over 20".

photo 1 (2).jpg
Holdover rainbow, NJ.

Just located some huge spawning smallmouth. Hooked one on a sucker spawn that I had in my box but it thrashed my 6x ( I didn't think too far ahead ). This smallie was bigger than any bass I have ever seen. Hopefully I can post a picture of some soon.
 
Forget these entomology pictures

View attachment 10773
View attachment 10774
The coloration on the breast of these rainbows is crazy. I'm not sure you could call this a double bow

View attachment 10776
View attachment 10775
I had to throw a couple more ugly rainbows in this post

View attachment 10777
Landed this on 6x...from an unstocked trib to the Delaware. No idea where it came from, but had beautifully-spotted fins and fought like hell.

View attachment 10778
This fish was re-visited. It kicked my ass by taking me out to my backing during higher flows in our first encounter. I swore it was over 20".

View attachment 10779
Holdover rainbow, NJ.

Just located some huge spawning smallmouth. Hooked one on a sucker spawn that I had in my box but it thrashed my 6x ( I didn't think too far ahead ). This smallie was bigger than any bass I have ever seen. Hopefully I can post a picture of some soon.


Start your own thread...PUNK!!!:punk:


Nice fish!!!!!:)
 
I believe your common names used are correct. Looking at the one at the bottom the Cahill that looks like this one from my collection. Mine is a
( Maccaffertium modestum / rubrum ). The Sulphur one or the second photo appears to be ( Ephemerella invaria ). The midge well I know nothing about them.

picture_388_large.jpg
 
I believe your common names used are correct. Looking at the one at the bottom the Cahill that looks like this one from my collection. Mine is a
( Maccaffertium modestum / rubrum ). The Sulphur one or the second photo appears to be ( Ephemerella invaria ). The midge well I know nothing about them.

View attachment 11005

I believe you are correct!!!!!
 
Well if we like a test !!! which I do !!! lets do it.

Based on what I can make out from this one photo there several potentials. It appears to be a male imago of the genus Maccaffertium or Stenonema. Stenonema femoratum has the dark infused stigmatic stain that we see in the upper area of the forewing it does suggest Stenonema femoratum. However I don't know where the sample was taken from, what the size is, or the time of session that you collected it. So because Maccaffertium pudicum can also look like this it makes knowing for sure very tough without dissection.

However I believe I have seen this photo before on Trout nut with a Stenacron carolina that I diagnosed ??? If so I now believe that Kurt cleared this one up as
M pudicum.

It is the same photo I just checked, Ha "JohnNY"








11020d1370431627t-mr-cahill-sulphurs-picture_820_full.jpg
 
Last edited:
Well if we like a test !!! which I do !!! lets do it.

Based on what I can make out from this one photo there several potentials. It appears to be a male imago of the genus Maccaffertium or Stenonema. Stenonema femoratum has the dark infused stigmatic stain that we see in the upper area of the forewing it does suggest Stenonema femoratum. However I don't know where the sample was taken from, what the size is, or the time of session that you collected it. So because Maccaffertium pudicum can also look like this it makes knowing for sure very tough without dissection.

However I believe I have seen this photo before on Trout nut with a Stenacron carolina that I diagnosed ??? If so I now believe that Kurt cleared this one up as

M pudicum.







11020d1370431627t-mr-cahill-sulphurs-picture_820_full.jpg

http://www.troutnut.com/specimen/497
 
Notice the body posture is incorrect. It is a Maccaffertium pudicum. Leucorcuta are more closely related to Stenacron. Kurt, Taxon, and myself agreed that this one is pudicum on Trout nut.

http://www.troutnut.com/topic/8055/March-BrownQuill-Gordon
 
Notice the body posture is incorrect. It is a Maccaffertium pudicum. Leucorcuta are more closely related to Stenacron. Kurt, Taxon, and myself agreed that this one is pudicum on Trout nut.

http://www.troutnut.com/topic/8055/March-BrownQuill-Gordon

I stand corrected
 
I thought it was you...
Welcome...

M pudicum?

But didn't you guys say it was Stenacron Carolina...

I mean, look at those eyes set so far apart...

Ya the one with the long blackish gray tails that was yellow was the carolina, the other one is pudicum

This is the carolina
carolina.jpg
 
[/COLOR]Ya the one with the long blackish gray tails that was yellow was the carolina, the other one is pudicum


I mentioned this in the thread:
Those various photos are showing the SAME bugs.
It seemed as if when they first become spinners, they are all darker and with time, they all lose the pigment in their bodies but their tails darken...
 
They are two different bugs the eye spacing is way different + many other things. And they are both in the spinner stage.




picture_820_full.jpg this one is the Maccaffertium pudicum

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------




carolina.jpgthis one is Stenacron carolina


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Last edited:
I am going to try this another way to show that they are not even the same genus. First lets review the Stenacron carolina. As you might know already from trout nut I am in the writing possess for a book called -- The complete history of the genus Stenacron 1839 forward. I am going to show you some illustrations that are for the book of the species Stenacron carolina. Then I will show you an illustration form biosystematic revision to the genus Stenonema 1979 Bednarik & McCafferty figure 84 for pudicum. I marked the illustration with red arrows. They are what are referred to as spiracular spots. The mayfly on the leaf with the subimago exuvia or skin next to it is a spinner. A spinner is easily defined by having transparent wings or as properly call hyaline. Both the yellow one and the one on the leaf have wings I can see through mean they are both in the spinner state. + notice the yellow one does not have spiracular spots on the sides of the abdomen. All species that have these spots have them through their entire life cycle, not just at one point in time or another, they are genetically fixed you might say to a species.

_______________________________________________________

Stenacron carolina

gjgjcjc.jpgkhkf.jpgcaroloina.jpgcar.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maccaffertium pudicum




pudi.jpg



________________________________________________________________________________________-
 
All I can say is.....
I am sure glad fish, trout in particular, can't speak a lick of latin...............
 
I am going to try this another way to show that they are not even the same genus. First lets review the Stenacron carolina. As you might know already from trout nut I am in the writing possess for a book called -- The complete history of the genus Stenacron 1839 forward. I am going to show you some illustrations that are for the book of the species Stenacron carolina. Then I will show you an illustration form biosystematic revision to the genus Stenonema 1979 Bednarik & McCafferty figure 84 for pudicum. I marked the illustration with red arrows. They are what are referred to as spiracular spots. The mayfly on the leaf with the subimago exuvia or skin next to it is a spinner. A spinner is easily defined by having transparent wings or as properly call hyaline. Both the yellow one and the one on the leaf have wings I can see through mean they are both in the spinner state. + notice the yellow one does not have spiracular spots on the sides of the abdomen. All species that have these spots have them through their entire life cycle, not just at one point in time or another, they are genetically fixed you might say to a species.

_______________________________________________________

Stenacron carolina

View attachment 11024View attachment 11025View attachment 11026View attachment 11027

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maccaffertium pudicum




View attachment 11028



________________________________________________________________________________________-
...

I don't know what to tell you...
Tell ya what...
show me photos of both of these species (other than mine)where they BOTH have tails that are three times the length of their bodies.

I can't find any. And you're telling me that on the same day I photographed this 3x tail phenomena in two DIFFERENT species above my intermittent stream...
 
Almost every male mayfly in the Heptageniidae family has tails that exceed twice the length. No matter the genus. Stenacron males work like this; all male Stenacron that are between the body size of 8-10 mm have tails that are exactly 22 mm. For Maccaffertium they are more like 18 mm. The female has to carry the male in flight to copulate and the long wide spent male tails are part of the balance theme. I believe I have laid it out as best as possible to show that they are not the same bug. However if you truly believe they are the same you have that right to do so.
 
They don't appear to be the same species, but I'm not sure the one on the leaf is a M pudicum - it does not appear to be large enough (size 8-10), and tails appear to be 3X the length of the body, which is not typical of the Maccaffertium sp.

It is also very likely that trout don't care and see both as a food item. :)
 
It was my mentor a man with a PhD in entomology that clarified it as a pudicum and I tend to agree with him. He has never be wrong so far. But truly with out dissection this is a speculation anyway.


And very true the trout just see food
:D
 
Almost every male mayfly in the Heptageniidae family has tails that exceed twice the length. No matter the genus. Stenacron males work like this; all male Stenacron that are between the body size of 8-10 mm have tails that are exactly 22 mm. For Maccaffertium they are more like 18 mm. The female has to carry the male in flight to copulate and the long wide spent male tails are part of the balance theme. I believe I have laid it out as best as possible to show that they are not the same bug. However if you truly believe they are the same you have that right to do so.

I enjoy being right, but only when I am right.
I brought this up over on "Trout Nut" because I was curious to know what this(these)bug(s) is(are).

I've been seeing this bug for thirty years.
It is at an intermittent stream, a torrent at spring thaw, inches deep in the spring and inches to "dry" the rest of the year(save for a wet week or a strong thunderstorm).
I took the photos.
I photographed the bug on the leaf; I collected the others(exactly the same spot as the "leaf bug") and photographed them in my kitchen.

You believe that these are two different bugs.
I'm telling you that the leaf bug had JUST become a spinner and the other clearer bugs with darker tails are hours older versions of the leaf bug.

I can't find photos of any Pudicum that have tails OVER 3x the length of the body like the photo of my "leaf bug. The bugs in my kitchen ALSO have tails over 3x the length of their bodies.

The unusual tail length alone supports my belief that the two are the same bug and given that I can't find any pudicum with 3x tails makes me think that I've got a case for these being the same bug...

Look at the first two photos here:
http://www.troutnut.com/topic/8055/March-BrownQuill-Gordon

You can see the transformation to a clearer bug and darker tails.

The bugs in my kitchen photos are the end of the transformation,
dark eyes, clearer bodies and dark tails.

Come for a visit next spring, we'll document it and become famous in the bug world.

Or I'll be wrong and buy you dinner...
 
I love PA and would love to visit it again I lived near Lewisburg for years. I would love to take you up on that offer but I don't have a Canadian passport at this time. So if I cross the boarded I can't come back. The most important feature is like "YOU" said the eye spacing and that they are both spinners.

So tell me why in the yellow carolina, the eyes are very wide spread, and the pudicum they are tight, but both are in the last 12 hours of their life span ????

From a morphological position they are as full grown as they will ever be.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Inside of typically about 45 seconds the exoskeleton fuses after molt. So the eye spread is set at an instant basically. It takes APX from 30 second to 3.5 minutes depending on genus and species to evacuate the shuck completely. So because the head comes out first it is most often fused and set before the abdomen is cleared.

Here is a photo under my microscope of a ( Stenacron comadidum ) breaking the the crown of the larva head to reveal the eyes first. The eyes and vertex are the first things out all the time no matter the genus or species.

2014-09-17 15-33-27.007.jpg


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


 
I love PA and would love to visit it again I lived near Lewisburg for years. I would love to take you up on that offer but I don't have a Canadian passport at this time. So if I cross the boarded I can't come back. The most important feature is like "YOU" said the eye spacing and that they are both spinners.

So tell me why in the yellow carolina, the eyes are very wide spread, and the pudicum they are tight, but both are in the last 12 hours of their life span ????

From a morphological position they are as full grown as they will ever be.


I think that the angle of the shot has you thinking the eyes are closer together than they are...

But let me keep it simple for me...
in the trout nut thread...

Is the bug in photo 1 the same or different than photo 2?
Is photo 1 bug different or the same as photo 5?
And I would assume you agree that 2 and 5 are the same...

Do you have any photo or documented description of Maccaffertium pudicum as having tails over 3 times the body length?

Thanks for the continued effort.
 
1 & 2 are different

1 & 5 are different

yes 2 & 5 are the same


Here is something else that might help out. First your Stenacron carolina are a little dark on average for that species and that is an environmental issue. Here are some photos that came from a Stenacron hunter friend in south Carolina and this is more toward the typical coloring for the species. In the pictures you took in the kitchen you can see a little more of the yellow tones. I am more than happy to take time to help you and others that are interested learn and understand.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stenacron carolina from SC;

carolina sharon (1).jpgcarolina sharon (3).jpgcarolina sharon (5).jpgcarolina sharon (6).jpg





-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

1 & 2 are different

1 & 5 are different

yes 2 & 5 are the same

In the Troutnut thread"
Just to clear things up for me...
#1 is what you believe to be the Maccaffertium pudicum
#2 and #5 are what you believe to be the Stenacron Carolina, right?
And all the "kitchen" photos are Stenacrons?

Here is something else that might help out. First your Stenacron carolina are a little dark on average for that species and that is an environmental issue. Here are some photos that came from a Stenacron hunter friend in south Carolina and this is more toward the typical coloring for the species. In the pictures you took in the kitchen you can see a little more of the yellow tones. I am more than happy to take time to help you and others that are interested learn and understand.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stenacron carolina from SC;

I'm going out on a limb here, but THOSE tails are not over 3x the body length of that fly...
Tail length is not important for an I.D.?

But can you find any photo or description of a Maccaffertium pudicum with "3x" tails?

Thanks again...
 
Back
Top