March Brown/ Grey Fox

[DoubleHaul]

Doing so research & seems the science guys are calling it this way. march brown & grey fox are the same species.
My question is do the anglers agree?

DH

 

[bkill]

I have always lumped these two species together..Mostly because they emerge basically the same time and they both seem to prefer the same type of water...The MB seem to hatch more sporadically during the entire day with a heavier hatch in the afternoon/evening...The Foxes seem to come off in larger numbers in one or more events during the course of the day...Are they related, I dont know, I am just a fisherman...What I do know is that once these hatches start, the fish will take a properly presented dry fly almost anytime during the day...and when you catch the hatch right, your rod will stay bent for a while...

The March Browns seem to get the glory but I think the Foxes have netted more fish for me over the years...

 

[Rusty Spinner]

DNA never lies and DNA says they are the same species. But that doesn't mean you can't tie the Gray Fox a different color than the March Brown. For whatever the reason is - time of year they hatch, one is a sub-species, or whatever, they appear to the eye to be two different species, but science now tells us they are one and the same.

Of course you can get all caught up in the colorations, when they hatch, etc. or you can just tie on an Adams in size 10 and catch fish. Personally, I just use march brown flies. Trout have an I.Q. of 6. How tricky can it be?

 

[jlajoie]

Same family, but different species as far as I can tell. American March Brown is known as Stenonema Vicarium, and the Grey Fox is known as Stenonema Fuscum. The Grey Fox and the Ginger Quill are the same species, names associated with the dun and the spinner, respectively.
The Grey Fox hatches usually follow the March Brown hatches by a week or so, but with current environmental factors, water temps, et al, that can change.

 

[biot]

DNA never lies and DNA says they are the same species. But that doesn't mean you can't tie the Gray Fox a different color than the March Brown. For whatever the reason is - time of year they hatch, one is a sub-species, or whatever, they appear to the eye to be two different species, but science now tells us they are one and the same.

Science mite say that they are one in the same but they are totally different colors.
Grey Foxes are smaller than the March Brown and have a totally different wing. Structure is the same but the March Brown has a heavy venation in their wings and the Grey Foxes wing is more a solid grey (Dun) color, hence the name Grey Fox.
And where it really shows up is after they molt into spinners. With the March Brown turning a more Rusty Brown color and the Grey Fox being more of an Amber shade.
Totally different in my opinion. Hell at one time the scientists said the Grey Fox and the Light Cahill were one and the same.
Who knows but I'd rather treat them as different insects, due to the fact that I'd rather follow traditions that have been part of Fly Fishing as far as "Matching the Hatch"

 

[Corndog]

Good point Biot...if you're trying to match the hatch it doesn't really matter what genus it belongs to. You pick the fly in your box that most closely resembles it. You wouldn't pick a March Brown from your box if you're holding a Grey Fox in your hand.

Cdog

 

[gadfly]

Same species doesn't mean they're not significantly different. Don't forget that chihuahuas, great danes, and poodles are the same species. There can be a lot of variation between different populations of the same species.

Also when the populations become separated either geographically or by behavior differences (such as timing of reproduction), they generally become increasingly different until they are eventually different species. It could be that March Browns and Grey Foxes are in the process of splitting but aren't quite there yet.

 

[biot]

Same species doesn't mean they're not significantly different. Don't forget that chihuahuas, great danes, and poodles are the same species. There can be a lot of variation between different populations of the same species.

Also when the populations become separated either geographically or by behavior differences (such as timing of reproduction), they generally become increasingly different until they are eventually different species. It could be that March Browns and Grey Foxes are in the process of splitting but aren't quite there yet.

That's exactly why I treat them as different hatches and tye different fly's for the them.
Science is cool, but sometimes getting too technical (DNA), take's the fun out of it.

 

[gadfly]

Well you're right. They're different, so treat them differently. It doesn't really matter what the latin name is.

 

[dcabarle]

Sorry to be jumping in here a little late... As a few have mentioned, but more specifically, BIOT... The "fuscum" are noticably smaller in size and the wings are slightly different too. People are people, black, white, tall, short, fat, AKslim, asian, otherwise...

Here is a video I took way back when I used to "raise" these fine little insects in a giant tank and study them for hours upon hours.

http://www.njflyfishing.com/photopost/data/509/thumbs/265Fuscom.mpg

Here are a few pictures (albeit, not my best work) which show you the obvious differences. The first two are the old Grey Fox. The second two are March Browns.









The March Browns are definetely a meatier insect. All of those photo's were taking a while back on inferior camera equipment with an inferior photographer at the helm. My photography has improved a million times over the past few years and my equipment has also gotten a bit more pricey. One of these days I'll fire up one of my camera getups and start taking pictures for the site again. When I'm fishing, I just get a bit too lazy.

 

[PRomano]

That video is nothing short of amazing! How long did you have to sit there and wait for that to happen?

 

[dcabarle]

That video is nothing short of amazing! How long did you have to sit there and wait for that to happen?

Hours upon hours. You watch their behavior in the tank (and I should have documented it). You think their going to hatch then they don't. The worst is when you watch them for hours and you just have to leave for a little while, then you come back and have 10 of them all hatched up. Now that's annoying!

I've watched Isonychia's for hours too (I know this is a gray fox/march brown thread, but hey... If AK can hijack threads, so can I!). They are the most difficult to predict. They crawl out of the water to hatch and if they don't like the conditions, they'll crawl right back in and find a rock to attach to. Then maybe they'll crawl out again and well... it's an ongoing process. But, when the Isonychia hatches and you watch the entire process, it's nothing short of amazing. Here is a photo of an ISO I took after watching him for hours. He finally decided to hatch! You'll see his casing (slightly) down below his tail. What does it for me about this photo is the little drop of water at the very end of the abdomen where the tail meets. Click the little yellow thing on top of the photo to enlarge it. I also have some video footage of this somewhere but I've looked and looked but couldn't find it.

 

[Corndog]

DC,

YOU DA MAN!!!

You ain't gonna find this kind of quality on any other forum.

Cdog

 

[AKSkim]

You ain't gonna find this kind of quality on any other forum.

Cdog

Better if he posted a youtube video to reinforce his statement.

Too many words.. too many words.

 

[Dizzy]

Same family, but different species as far as I can tell. American March Brown is known as Stenonema Vicarium, and the Grey Fox is known as Stenonema Fuscum.

Both Stenonema vicarium and Stenonema fuscum were RE-classifed some years ago as the same species… Maccaffertium vicarium. Many others were as well (for example: Ephemerella rotunda and E. invaria have been combined into one species… E. invaria).

I don’t know why this happens… I guess once a century they like to really “get nuts” at the Society of Entomologists Convention. :smiley-sniffer:

Great fun for them, makes a mess out of some classic fly fishing reference books though.

I guess it’s not that big a deal (Gray Fox or March Brown)… other than being different colors and sizes at all stages of the insect… they’re practically identical!

Reminds of that movie Twins… with Arnold and DeVito. :-D

 

[jlajoie]

Both Stenonema vicarium and Stenonema fuscum were RE-classifed some years ago as the same species… Maccaffertium vicarium. Many others were as well (for example: Ephemerella rotunda and E. invaria have been combined into one species… E. invaria).

I don’t know why this happens… I guess once a century they like to really “get nuts” at the Society of Entomologists Convention. :smiley-sniffer:

Great fun for them, makes a mess out of some classic fly fishing reference books though.

I guess it’s not that big a deal (Gray Fox or March Brown)… other than being different colors and sizes at all stages of the insect… they’re practically identical!

Reminds of that movie Twins… with Arnold and DeVito. :-D

Silly bastards...don't they have anything better to do than to render all my Entomology books useless?

 

[Dizzy]

Silly bastards...don't they have anything better to do than to render all my Entomology books useless?

Maybe it's they’re way of stimulating the economy.

Now a new wave of experts can regurgitate 65-year old knowledge, slap some new lipstick (Latin) on it, and you’ll be able to go out and buy all NEW books.

Like the “Czech-style nymphing” craze… :down:

"Big Jim" Leisenring must be rolling around in his grave.

 

[jlajoie]

Agreed.....

 

[Stenacron man]

I am new here and will have to figure out the platform here.

Biot.

You should treat them as different insects as they are. "As said to me by Dr Jeff Webb.

"The bug is still the same bugs just the name changed".

There are currently 3 forms that make up the vicarium complex. The forms are; 1 vicarium, 2 rivulicolum, and 3 fuscum, and they progress in color and size variation from 1 - 3. (3) being the lightest and smallest or as we knew it "fuscum". The most common one of the 3 forms seen is actually rivulicolum. Last year I reared over 300 samples in all three forms and from the genital aspect they technically for science purposes they should be seen as the same. Below are 3 samples from my rearing series.

The first male is a (M vicarium / fuscum ) the female is a (M vicarium / rivulicolum ). The third one is a true (M vicarium) male to Walkers description. I hope when this posts the images will be bigger. I hope this is useful to you showing this series.

I fish all three with the same fly just different sizes.