Just curious Orvis question

G Lech

G Lech

New member
So recently I have become very interested in the orvis superfine series of rods. I own a older 2 wt which I really like and recently found a new love for slowwwwww graphite rods,thanks to my after work small stream fishing trips :) In my searches online I discovered orvis still makes full flex rods but some are labeled 5.5 4.5 ETC. I'm wondering what the difference is? Also how do the newer ones match-up to the older ones? Anybody here familiar with orvis? and maybe shed some light on the subject. Thanks!
 
I own a 7'6 3 weight Superfine Trout Bum and I love it compared to my dad's 7'9 2 weight Sage LL. It's got that slow full flex, but it also has enough back bone to still get me where I need to be unlike the Sage. It presents delicately enough to fool the trickiest little wilds in the small streams and still launch across some wide pools on the paulinskill. I can't tell you much about the numbers on the Flex Index, but I can tell you that for 500 bucks, it's a great rod, and the new blank looks similar to Scott's G2, if you're into that.
 
I love the superfine especially the older ones with the unsanded blanks.

Here is a link that might shed some light on your question.

Fly Rod Flex Index ? Choosing a Fly Rod ? Orvis Fly Fishing




G Lech said:
So recently I have become very interested in the orvis superfine series of rods. I own a older 2 wt which I really like and recently found a new love for slowwwwww graphite rods,thanks to my after work small stream fishing trips :) In my searches online I discovered orvis still makes full flex rods but some are labeled 5.5 4.5 ETC. I'm wondering what the difference is? Also how do the newer ones match-up to the older ones? Anybody here familiar with orvis? and maybe shed some light on the subject. Thanks!
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The OLDER Orvis's are GREAT RODS -- They basically set the standard on all other rod companies to try to meet and best their line of graphites -- The Far and Fine -- The Performer -- The Trout -- The coveted "Western tippet" -- etc. etc. -- They all had their subtle differences and they all sold for around the same price 300.00. Im talking 25 - 30 yrs ago -- All of those rods in the right hands could cast a whole fly line with NO PROBLEM -- question is - how often do you need to do that?? -- One of my Favorite BIG RIVER Rods is the Orvis 9ft 6 wt Performer. That rod can cast a ton with ease and deliver a dry like it's landing on a pillow. I also love my 3wt Western Tippet in fact Iloved it so much I actually bought a 4wt western tippet.

Alot of people were turned off by the "ROUGH" look of orvis rods back it he day -- The reason Orvis didnt put alot of resin on their rods at the time to give it that "SMOOTH FINISHED LOOK" is because the technology for Graphite resin wasnt great -- It added weight and also would crack and the rod/s makers that did "FINISH" the rod that way had alot of problems and complaints about check cracking of the resin itself.

Just and FYI -- You can actually special order these older Orvis's from orvis if you want them.

At this point in time I really dont think it matters which "HIGH END ROD" you buy weather it be Orvis Sage Winston T&T -- All the blanks are made by a contractor and basically come from the same place -- the ony difference is the taper

Hope this helps

Dan
 
At this point in time I really dont think it matters which "HIGH END ROD" you buy weather it be Orvis Sage Winston T&T -- All the blanks are made by a contractor and basically come from the same place -- the ony difference is the taper Hope this helps Dan[/QUOTE said:
What the hell does this mean.... "All the blanks are made by "A" contractor and basically come from the same place", i have to say.... I think you have no clue what the fuck you are talking about. And to speak to lech's question... I do at least 75 percent of my fly fishing with a 3wt. 6'6" full flex trout bum that is about 5 years old. it is way more versatile than many would think and can cast a decent distance if needed.
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Trouser Trout said:
What the hell does this mean.... "All the blanks are made by "A" contractor and basically come from the same place", i have to say.... I think you have no clue what the fuck you are talking about. And to speak to lech's question... I do at least 75 percent of my fly fishing with a 3wt. 6'6" full flex trout bum that is about 5 years old. it is way more versatile than many would think and can cast a decent distance if needed.
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What does this have to do with my post -- I never bashed any rod or any manufacturer -- In fact how would I even know what rod/s you have?? Calm down TT

As far as blanks -- YES they are made by only a few sub contractors these days -- Most and I quote "MOST" rod manufacturers buy their blanks made from a company that specializes in just making blanks of different tapers and weights -- some manufactures do give the specifications and tapers they want to the contracting company -- But -- The dont actually manfacture the blank. It;s business and good business at that -- it saves the rod manufactures money --- They get a "RAW" Blank that has been Vacuum and heated only -- then finish it the way they prefer --- If you dont believe me Call Winston -- Call T&T they will tell you that it isnt cost effective for them to buy the equipment and materials needed to pump out hundreds of blanks for rod making -- So they sub contract it out to their specs -- COST SAVINGS --- Take it from someone who has taught Carbon Graphite/Composite technology -- It takes a lot of time to cure pre preg materials -- It is "ALMOST" impossible to soak Dry Carbon Graphite with resin -- so they use a Vacuum system that gets the matrix Perfect and the material wetted to the proper amount. Then after that is done you need to either 1 put it in a freezer to keep it from curing which in fact has a 3 month life even in a freezer or you use the whole bolt at once -- but -- it MUST BE PUT UNDER PRESSURE ie" VACUUM and heat for anywhere from 5 to 12 hours with Bleeder Breather and some form of NON StICK Material so the resin doesnt incorporate it into the Carbon Graphite itself -- I really dont want to get to deep into the process of PRE PREGS but I think you get the idea. Carbon Graphite isnt like fiber Glass or kevlar to work -- it is much more difficult and the "MATRIX" has to be perfect or the strength will be diminished 3 fold.

I hope this clarifies my previous post

Peace
Dan
 
Dan,

That may be true for the import rods, don't know, but the Orvis, and others are made one by one by the respective companies. You can drive to Manchester, VT and watch the rods being rolled, one by one, at the Orvis rod shop. If you want to take a longer trip, you could probably do the same with Sage.
 
Joe

Are the rod blanks being rolled outand Vacuum Baged with heat ( AUTOCLAVE) more or less because Carbon Fiber resin needs Pressure and heat to cure -- or are they being coated with a finish type air dry epoxy to get that nice shiney finished look. The AUTCLAVE that would be used to mass produce fly rods would have to be HUGE -- I cant see a company doing 1 rod at a time at 5 to 12 hours under heat and pressure depending on the resin used for the lamination process. Plus the cost of running that Autoclave would be astronomical.

Thats why I ask if its actually the Blanks beig Produced or is it the cosmetic Pretty Shiney air dry resin being applied --- You stated rods being rolled out -- rolled out of the Carbon Fiber itself or rolled out on a conveyer type belt or whatever they use??

If they are actually are making their own Blanks -- I stand corrected --- But I highly doubt that they are actually making Blanks -- I do know Orvis back in the day made their own blanks but they only mand so many of each model -- They were considered VERY EXPENSIVE at that time so it made sense -- plus not many people were fly fishing -- They still have the OLD Equipment to make the OLD RODS -- The technology today has changed so much that to re - tool would cost thousands of dollars

Peace
Dan
 
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They make their own blanks, except for the Clearwater & Streamline. They are manufactured by someone else to their specs. The investment in R & D and equipment is huge. Sounds like you'd enjoy a tour of the rod shop... very interesting stuff and pretty cool too. They used to give tours to the public, not certain if they still do, but if you're ever in the area it's worth a phone call to find out. From bamboo to aerospace technology...
 
Joe D said:
They make their own blanks, except for the Clearwater & Streamline. They are manufactured by someone else to their specs. The investment in R & D and equipment is huge. Sounds like you'd enjoy a tour of the rod shop... very interesting stuff and pretty cool too. They used to give tours to the public, not certain if they still do, but if you're ever in the area it's worth a phone call to find out. From bamboo to aerospace technology...
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Ok I stand corrected -- Thanks Joe -- I learned something -- appreciate it
 
Not sure if they still do but Winston made their own blanks as recently as 2000. Took the tour while was on fishing trip one fall.
 
If you look in The Orvis catalog. Every rod has a made in Vermont stamp on the page. I would not care if Orvis did some production elsewhere in the US. Their quality and reassurance are second to none.

All I know is I accidently had broken an Orvis rod last year that was 24 years 8 months into 25 year guarantee.
I sent the rod back and it was fixed, refinished and sent back to me with no questions asked. I do not know of any rod makers that would stand behind their product like Orvis does. They are a class act in my book. You can not go wrong buying an Orvis Rod
 
Ive sent rods back to sage no problem , I would be curious how LL Bean is as they stand behind they're products like no other .
 
Dan,
it sounds like you have the carbon pre preg mixed up with actual blanks. You are correct in stating that there are only a couple of companies that make the actual pre preg material, that is the flat pieces of carbon fiber material that has been baked with the specific resin. this is then rolled into blanks, Orvis, Sage, T&T, Winston, Loomis. Next time your up in north Central Mass stop into T&T and maybe just maybe they will give you the nickel tour. I have a buddy who is a guide out west last year he went on a tour of the Winston plant out in Montana. what he thought was the greatest thing was watching them roll the raw carbon pre preg onto the mandrels to create the specific rod pieces. I know Orvis used to give tours of the rod shop during their Orvis days sale. Now a lot of companies like TFO, Echo, cabelas have rods built overseas to their specs and some of them are not all that bad.

Steve
 
I think Dan made a pretty good argument about why you pay $700 for a rod from a small company who makes their own blanks and $200 from a company that purchases their blanks from a big manufacturer - offshore or on. The high volume manufacturers have good quality control too (you should get consistency with volume production) , that's why many of the less expensive rods are pretty good. Of course there are probably more high end brands than you think that do buy blanks because making a few bucks isn't a crime. T&T and other small, high end rod makers always seem to be onthe edge even with the prices they charge. Whatever you save about Orvis, they have made changes to allow them to survive for 150 years. Not many fishing rod suppliers can claim that and the list of the fallen is long.

Those nano-particle rods are expensive because it can be a b***h to mix tiny, tiny particles uniformly into resin. But before you know it the terchnology will be down pat and it will be on to the next thing.
 
T&T have some video's of the rod production posted on their web site. Very good stuff, I highly recommend you check it out. A couple years back they aired a segment of Tom Dorsey making Bamboo rods on the science channel's "How it's Made" show. That video was also posted on the website but I couldn't find it last time I checked.

Our Craft - Thomas & Thomas
 
Lloyd said:
Ive sent rods back to sage no problem , I would be curious how LL Bean is as they stand behind they're products like no other .
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Lloyd,

I've only had excellent experiences with Bean's over the years. Good products that they stand behind. But it's tough to beat the culture that Orvis has created with, "For more than 150 years, we have offered the strongest return policy in the business. We will refund your money on any purchase that isn't 100% satisfactory. Anytime, for any reason. It's that simple."

But to me, more important than that is their commitment to the environment. When Dave Perkins, CEO of Orvis comes out and say's, "I'm always gratified, but never surprised by the willingness of our customers to contribute meaningfully to our conservation efforts. Together over the years we have achieved some remarkable results, and that's why our commitment of of 5% of pre-tax profits is not only a commitment to protect nature, but it is a commitment to our customers."

Over the last ten years, they've donated nearly $10 million to many conservation organizations, including Trout Unlimited, The Nature Conservancy, Coastal Conservation Association, Ducks Unlimited, The Conservation Fund, Ruffed Grouse Society, and The Atlantic Salmon Fund.
 
danme said:
The OLDER Orvis's are GREAT RODS -- They basically set the standard on all other rod companies to try to meet and best their line of graphites -- The Far and Fine -- The Performer -- The Trout -- The coveted "Western tippet" -- etc. etc. -- They all had their subtle differences and they all sold for around the same price 300.00. Im talking 25 - 30 yrs ago -- All of those rods in the right hands could cast a whole fly line with NO PROBLEM -- question is - how often do you need to do that?? -- One of my Favorite BIG RIVER Rods is the Orvis 9ft 6 wt Performer. That rod can cast a ton with ease and deliver a dry like it's landing on a pillow. I also love my 3wt Western Tippet in fact Iloved it so much I actually bought a 4wt western tippet.

Alot of people were turned off by the "ROUGH" look of orvis rods back it he day -- The reason Orvis didnt put alot of resin on their rods at the time to give it that "SMOOTH FINISHED LOOK" is because the technology for Graphite resin wasnt great -- It added weight and also would crack and the rod/s makers that did "FINISH" the rod that way had alot of problems and complaints about check cracking of the resin itself.

Just and FYI -- You can actually special order these older Orvis's from orvis if you want them.

At this point in time I really dont think it matters which "HIGH END ROD" you buy weather it be Orvis Sage Winston T&T -- All the blanks are made by a contractor and basically come from the same place -- the ony difference is the taper

Hope this helps

Dan
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Yup, Orvis rods (Helios, Access, Superfine) are all made in Vermont by Orvis.

Also, the "rough" look of rods back in the day, and now with the new Orvis Superfine Touch, is not from the lack of "resin" or epoxy coating, it is actually an unsanded black. "Resin" is what's used to bind the carbon fibers together. Once the black is rolled and heated, it is usually sanded smooth and dipped when painted. The "rough" blanks are unsanded and unpainted blanks.
 
G Lech

I think you need to try out the different flexs at an Orvis shop and see how they feel. I think the far and fine
is a nice rod for small to mid size rivers like the Musky.
 
Hate to rain on your parade but I dont think you are correct -- Sanding Carbon Fiber/Graphite is the biggest NO NO in composite technology PERIOD -- When you sand Carbon Fiber You weaken it, there is also a 99 percent chance of damaging the strands in the carbon fiber cloth. When 1 strand of Carbon fiber is damaged then automatically you start a chain reaction that cant be stopped until there is a catostrphic failure -- To make it easy to understand -- 1 strand breaks -- then another -- then another - etc. etc. etc. -- The older orvis rods DID NOT HAVE A TOP COAT OF AIR DRY RESIN TO MAKE IT LOOK FINISHED, for the mere fact that the AIR DRY resins of that time CRACKED and Orvis didnt want the rods sent back to them because of "CHECK CRACKING"and Added Weight -- not that the rod was cracked -- which a lot of the other companies had problems with.

With the introduction of MICRO BALLOONS and now NANO SPHERES they can reduce the weight of the AIR DRY RESINS by quite a bit -- (Im not getting into how much because every resin is different) and increase the elastisity to keep the resin from cracking.

Most people think the the more resin the stronger it will be -- It is actually the opposite -- If memory serves me (PLEASE DONT QUOTE ME ON THIS) I do believe the correct matrix is 1/3 resin 2/3 cloth when cured. In other words when it comes to resin --- LESS IS MORE

I hope this helps

Peace
Dan

U


afishinado said:
Yup, Orvis rods (Helios, Access, Superfine) are all made in Vermont by Orvis.

Also, the "rough" look of rods back in the day, and now with the new Orvis Superfine Touch, is not from the lack of "resin" or epoxy coating, it is actually an unsanded black. "Resin" is what's used to bind the carbon fibers together. Once the black is rolled and heated, it is usually sanded smooth and dipped when painted. The "rough" blanks are unsanded and unpainted blanks.
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afishinado has it right. The older carbon rods were not sanded. More current rods are sanded and then dippid in paint. The companies started sanding them because that's what the market wanted. When it comes down to it, it's the bling that sells most rods. Notice how many retailers merchandise their rods, the reel seat is prominently displayed at eye level. Dan, has it right too. Sanding the blanks weakens them, but rod manufactureres are in business to sell rods and most often are market driven.
 
If you really want to get down to Brass Tacks so to speak. You cant go wrong buying an Orvis Rod. I have 3 Orvis's over 23 -25 yrs old and they all hve given me nothing but pleasure and for the most part Trouble free service. I did have 1 problem with my 9ft 6wt performer the reel seat cam loose, I realigned it myself and used 5 minute epoxy to fix it. No big deal.

Orvis makes IMOVHO one of the best rods money can buy. Although I absolutely do love my New Hardy 5wt. I cant believe the difference in technology and the way that rod feels in my hand and while fishing. It is a HUGE HUGE Difference. I still fish the Orvis's and will for many many years to come.

The Old Orvis's I have, have been taken care too. They look like they are brand new. They ALWAYS get taken down and returned to their respective rod sock and tube and are cleaned throughly at the end of each season or when I feel its needed paying very careful attention to the Cork on the handle.

I hope my posts were somewhat enlightening and semi educational. Toput it all in a NUT SHELL -- YES G Lech buy that rod you will not be disappointed and if taken care of correctly you will have a serviceabe rod for you grand childrens grand children to fly fish with

Peace
Dan
 
I've got a 7'9 far and fine 5wt that I've had since the early 80's; recently got the 4pc 5wt 7'9" superfine Touch. I like them both. The old rod is missing about 3" off the tip; it handles a little better in the wind and such. They're both fantastic though.

Not great in heavy wind or if you're throwing a lot of weight.
 
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