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Fish & Boat Commission merger

Joe D

Registered User
Anglers need to let their state representative know how they feel on the prospect of the Fish & Boat Commission being forced to merge with the PA Game Commission. They also need to let them know how they feel about removing the authority of both the Fish & Game Commissions in making wildlife decisions and having that brought to an independent committee.

Pennsylvania legislature takes aim at wildlife agencies - mcall.com

Votes on these issues can be called in the legislature as early as March 10. Time is critical for you to contact your legislator.

Find Your Legislator - PA General Assembly
 
Joe,

While I don't know any of the possible concerns related to combining these agencies, I for one could never figure why they were separate in the first place? Seems logical to combine forces for fish and wildlife as nearly all states do. What am I missing? Sounds like there is a lot more going on than just combining agencies...
 
Joe,

While I don't know any of the possible concerns related to combining these agencies, I for one could never figure why they were separate in the first place? Seems logical to combine forces for fish and wildlife as nearly all states do. What am I missing? Sounds like there is a lot more going on than just combining agencies...

I think this is the part that should concern sportsmen. Who are the members of this independant comitte, PETA members?

"They also need to let them know how they feel about removing the authority of both the Fish & Game Commissions in making wildlife decisions and having that brought to an independent committee".
 
Joe,

While I don't know any of the possible concerns related to combining these agencies, I for one could never figure why they were separate in the first place? Seems logical to combine forces for fish and wildlife as nearly all states do. What am I missing? Sounds like there is a lot more going on than just combining agencies...

Brian,

The separation of the two commissions keeps fishing and boating dollars and concerns separate from hunting and trapping concerns. Each agency stands on their own. Should they be combined, fishing license money could get redirected toward deer management objectives or somewhere else depending on the public and political opinions at the time. Anyway, that report/discussion won't take place in the legislature until mid March and from there we'll have to see where it goes. Though, PA residents should let their state reps know where they stand on this matter.

The more pressing bill will remove science from managing and determining endangered and threatened species, along with the determination of wild trout streams form the science in the Fish & Game Commissions, balanced by the politics of the politically appointed commissioners, to that of pure politics via a politically appointed panel.
 
Brian,

The separation of the two commissions keeps fishing and boating dollars and concerns separate from hunting and trapping concerns. Each agency stands on their own. Should they be combined, fishing license money could get redirected toward deer management objectives or somewhere else depending on the public and political opinions at the time. Anyway, that report/discussion won't take place in the legislature until mid March and from there we'll have to see where it goes. Though, PA residents should let their state reps know where they stand on this matter.

The more pressing bill will remove science from managing and determining endangered and threatened species, along with the determination of wild trout streams form the science in the Fish & Game Commissions, balanced by the politics of the politically appointed commissioners, to that of pure politics via a politically appointed panel.

I don't worry much about the former, but the latter is a deal-killer. Thanks for the info, I hunt every year in PA and fish it from time to time, so I have a vested interest. I hate that politics enters into any fish and/or game decisions when it should just be about resource management. But we certainly see it happen here in NJ from time to time!
 
Brian/Joe,
Quick question for either of you. Does Pa. mandate a hunting guide license as they do for fishing ? I still maintain this was nothing more than a discriminatory push by border water guides to eliminate competition from border waters anglers.
On the other issue, I wouldnt be in favor of combining the two agencies. While I have no experience with Fish and Game, PAF&B seems to do a great job, especially compared with NY.
 
Brian/Joe,
Quick question for either of you. Does Pa. mandate a hunting guide license as they do for fishing ? I still maintain this was nothing more than a discriminatory push by border water guides to eliminate competition from border waters anglers.
On the other issue, I wouldnt be in favor of combining the two agencies. While I have no experience with Fish and Game, PAF&B seems to do a great job, especially compared with NY.

I don't know, Jeff. Maybe Joe does.

On the guide issue and licensing of guides, I'd be all for it if there were a class or test you had to take. Just charging a guide for an annual guide license doesn't mean he/she has any training being a guide, it just means they paid some form of tax to guide. Shockingly, NJ does not have a guide license requirement.
 
Jeff, The Game Commission only licenses elk hunting guides.

Brian, the license requirements are lax compared to other staes. CPR, First Aid, Boating Safety or USCG Lic., 500k liability insurance. But, I guess it's more stringent than NJ ;)
 
Jeff, The Game Commission only licenses elk hunting guides.

Brian, the license requirements are lax compared to other staes. CPR, First Aid, Boating Safety or USCG Lic., 500k liability insurance. But, I guess it's more stringent than NJ ;)

Sure is! Our insurance carrier requires that we have and keep up our CPR training, but that's it. Boating for NJ river guides is moot as you know, but should be required if boats are used, IMO. I'd even be OK if they added First Aid which I haven't taken now in a few decades.
 
Jeff, The Game Commission only licenses elk hunting guides.

Brian, the license requirements are lax compared to other staes. CPR, First Aid, Boating Safety or USCG Lic., 500k liability insurance. But, I guess it's more stringent than NJ ;)

And what is the most discriminatory portion is $400 for out of state guides and $100 for resident. I guide strictly on the Delaware which has reciprical fishing licenses but not guide licenses. This developed out of a workgroup established by PF&B of resident guides only, so you cannot tell me there was no ill intent on their part. And, they werent required by NY to have a guide license on border waters which Pa. requires us to do. At least NY tests and requires Water Safety besides the usual Red Cross Certs. Another problem is the insurance requirement which is more than the NPS, which meant an increase in my insurance. Sleazy, sleazy, sleazy !
Joe, I can see the rationalization for that. You never know when you might get poked by a 5 weight.
 
Sure is! Our insurance carrier requires that we have and keep up our CPR training, but that's it. Boating for NJ river guides is moot as you know, but should be required if boats are used, IMO. I'd even be OK if they added First Aid which I haven't taken now in a few decades.

Brian, I thought NJ had a mandatory boater safety requirement for everyone?
 
My goal is to guide on the Delaware soon.

But first, I'm gonna cut my teeth guiding for sunnies here in Jersey, where I don't need insurance.
 
And what is the most discriminatory portion is $400 for out of state guides and $100 for resident. I guide strictly on the Delaware which has reciprical fishing licenses but not guide licenses. This developed out of a workgroup established by PF&B of resident guides only, so you cannot tell me there was no ill intent on their part. And, they werent required by NY to have a guide license on border waters which Pa. requires us to do. At least NY tests and requires Water Safety besides the usual Red Cross Certs. Another problem is the insurance requirement which is more than the NPS, which meant an increase in my insurance. Sleazy, sleazy, sleazy !
Joe, I can see the rationalization for that. You never know when you might get poked by a 5 weight.

NY requires a guide license on border waters if you ingress or egress the river from NY. The same as PA now does.

The insurance requirement is minimal. The coverage is to protect the client. Personally, I think anything less than a mill is not enough.
 
NY requires a guide license on border waters if you ingress or egress the river from NY. The same as PA now does.

-----

The difference is that if you're a New York resident that guides on the Main Stem UDR a border water with NY and PA then you need a:

1. New York State DEC - 5 year license - The amount is the same whether you are a resident of New York OR non resident (NJ, PA, CT, RI, etc) if you are using any New York accesses.

2. Pennsylvania - 1 year license (Non Resident) : $400 per year HOWEVER if you are a resident of Pennsylvania - it is $100 per year

3. National Park Service - 2 year license: More money

Forney was the Superintendent of the NPS when the Pennsylvania started their guide program which was only about ten years ago compared to New York's, started over seventy plus years ago, which really began with the NYS DEC and the majority of guides were based in the Adirondacks and, in fact, still are.

IMO, the PA program was a money grab when it came to a border water in light that both states have reciprocity when it comes to fishing licenses.

And the fact that Pennsylvania quadrupled the amount to non residents was obscene and the NPS gave a minimal amount of lip service to protect NY guides, or any non resident guides that ply the UDR.

Lasty, imagine if NYS DEC instituted that fee structure to non-resident guides that work the UDR of $400 annually.

If you were a resident of NJ, CT, MI, ME, VT, etc. -- whereever - you'd be paying:

$400 to Pennsylvania annually

Possibly $1,400 to New York for a five year license {$350 x 4 per five years depending on classification} =

and

the two year fee to NPS

and then add on your annual insurance premium of liability P &I, etc that NPS (and other agencies) require for permit to guide for hire on the UDR evevry two years along with your fish catch data.

Beetle, save those bitcoins.

Tight lines,
TR
 
While the technical requirements ( CPR ,ect) aren't demanding to get fully licensed to guide the delaware, border waters, ect... the costs are excessive and a money grab to say the least. The cost to remain current as a doctor or lawyer license wise are CHEAPER than it is to be a fishing guide, and that simply is not fair. However, I think the good guides actually support the high costs because it serves as a protection mechanism to the industry and hypothetically keeps out guides who try to do the part time thing. This has been a major issue the past few years where licensed guides have been pressuring the PA boat commission to check guides at the ramps for their documentation and ensure they are authorized to guide on border waters. Still, the problem of guides not being licensed but guiding illegally persists and even worse, the PA boat commission has become ridiculous in how they attempt to check drift boaters. You are assumed to be a guide until proven innocent, and I was kept at 9:45 pm last year at the ramp with my two buddies being interrogated while my two buddies are being asked "how much did you pay him" and all other sorts of BS when in fact we were just fishing a late spinner fall. 30 minutes later we were "released" after 10pm. Even worse, is I was told that guides have been calling and reporting me for illegally guiding, when I don't even guide on the system anymore and was fully licensed during the years I was working up there. Clearly, there are some politics going on and its to the point that guides are literally making calls on the river reporting people as illegally guiding just because they have a few buddies on the boat and are seen on the river on a weekly basis(sorry for being the man and fishing every fucking week-75% sarcastic 25% serious), and with the river getting more crowded sometimes these "guiding" allegations come out of left field on a crowded day when frustrations are high and guys working every day get pissed you're anchored up in their go to evening hatch spot. I get enforcement of the licensing requirements is important, but they need a more refined process for enforcement that doesn't force recreational fisherman to get caught in the cross-hairs solely for the purpose of protecting the industry.
 
Last edited:
-----

The difference is that if you're a New York resident that guides on the Main Stem UDR a border water with NY and PA then you need a:

1. New York State DEC - 5 year license - The amount is the same whether you are a resident of New York OR non resident (NJ, PA, CT, RI, etc) if you are using any New York accesses.

2. Pennsylvania - 1 year license (Non Resident) : $400 per year HOWEVER if you are a resident of Pennsylvania - it is $100 per year

3. National Park Service - 2 year license: More money

Forney was the Superintendent of the NPS when the Pennsylvania started their guide program which was only about ten years ago compared to New York's, started over seventy plus years ago, which really began with the NYS DEC and the majority of guides were based in the Adirondacks and, in fact, still are.

IMO, the PA program was a money grab when it came to a border water in light that both states have reciprocity when it comes to fishing licenses.

And the fact that Pennsylvania quadrupled the amount to non residents was obscene and the NPS gave a minimal amount of lip service to protect NY guides, or any non resident guides that ply the UDR.

Lasty, imagine if NYS DEC instituted that fee structure to non-resident guides that work the UDR of $400 annually.

If you were a resident of NJ, CT, MI, ME, VT, etc. -- whereever - you'd be paying:

$400 to Pennsylvania annually

Possibly $1,400 to New York for a five year license {$350 x 4 per five years depending on classification} =

and

the two year fee to NPS

and then add on your annual insurance premium of liability P &I, etc that NPS (and other agencies) require for permit to guide for hire on the UDR evevry two years along with your fish catch data.

Beetle, save those bitcoins.

Tight lines,
TR

Tony,

You can quit imagining. NY charges me hundreds of dollars to guide in the marine district, just in case I stray across an imaginary line drawn several miles out in the sea, in addition to what NOAA Fisheries charges for several required permits. I'm required to file monthly reports to the DEC, whether I was in the state or not, and there's no use of free boat launches included. A non resident fishing license is also required of nonresident guides in NY. Something that you can skirt with PA on the Upper Delaware since a NY license is reciprocal on the border water. The fees are what they are because the choice is made to operate in multiple jurisdictions.

Though the NPS and PA require liability insurance to protect your clients against financial loss from bodily injury and property damage when with a guide or charter, good business practices would dictate that it would be there to protect the customer anyway.

It's all overhead. Every business has it. In the end, I'm more concerned with the thousands of dollars the IRS takes, high fuel taxes and the ridiculous property taxes NY charges me. As a percentage of gross the licensing fees aren't much and at least in PA the money goes directly to the Fish Commission and the resource and facilities, and is not filtered through the general fund.
 
Brian, I thought NJ had a mandatory boater safety requirement for everyone?

Possibly for off shore guides that I am not aware of, but we wade guide only for trout, so boating is a non-issue. Not sure about bass guides on lakes or guys that guide the D for shad, bass, walleye, muskies, smallies, etc. But for our trout streams, no boating courses required.
 
Tony,

You can quit imagining. NY charges me hundreds of dollars to guide in the marine district, just in case I stray across an imaginary line drawn several miles out in the sea, in addition to what NOAA Fisheries charges for several required permits. I'm required to file monthly reports to the DEC, whether I was in the state or not, and there's no use of free boat launches included. A non resident fishing license is also required of nonresident guides in NY. Something that you can skirt with PA on the Upper Delaware since a NY license is reciprocal on the border water. The fees are what they are because the choice is made to operate in multiple jurisdictions.

Though the NPS and PA require liability insurance to protect your clients against financial loss from bodily injury and property damage when with a guide or charter, good business practices would dictate that it would be there to protect the customer anyway.

It's all overhead. Every business has it. In the end, I'm more concerned with the thousands of dollars the IRS takes, high fuel taxes and the ridiculous property taxes NY charges me. As a percentage of gross the licensing fees aren't much and at least in PA the money goes directly to the Fish Commission and the resource and facilities, and is not filtered through the general fund.

------

Good morning Joe.

Some good points but my thoughts above had to do specifically regarding the border water (PA / NY) of the Main Stem Upper Delaware River which currently has guide licensing fees from three agencies - NYS DEC, PA FBC and NPS -- and I was not speaking to marine regs or inland freshwater rivers and streams which do not border other state's waters.

Pennsylvania has charged New Yorkers who reside on the same body of water for the past ten years quadruple annually and that is not equitable.

My point is that if New York DEC was to follow Pennsylvania's lead of charging four times the amount annually to non residents that work for hire on the UDR, any guide that resides in NJ, CT, ME, RI, VT, etc who guides for hire on the UDR would be charged possibly 4X by NYS and again 4X by Pennsylvania and whatever the DOI / NPS chooses to charge every other year.

Overhead? Money grab? Call it what you want. But it's a border water with NY/PA reciprocal fishing (not guide) license fees and the exception in this instance should be made especially with the NPS involved.

Wishful dreaming.

Tight lines.

TR
 
Possibly for off shore guides that I am not aware of, but we wade guide only for trout, so boating is a non-issue. Not sure about bass guides on lakes or guys that guide the D for shad, bass, walleye, muskies, smallies, etc. But for our trout streams, no boating courses required.

I thought you were referring to guides who use boats. No need for it if there are no vessels involved. But I'm sure in NJ if inland waters a Boater Safety course needs to be completed, since for anyone using a (motorized) boat in NJ that's the requirement for both inland & tidal. The guide would need a USGC 6 pack at minimum, and a NJ Saltwater Charter License (free & online) for tidal and waters under Federal jurisdiction. Other Federal permits and licenses depending on what else.

Next, guides will have to file an EIS... oops, I shouldn't give anyone any ideas.
 
------

Good morning Joe.

Some good points but my thoughts above had to do specifically regarding the border water (PA / NY) of the Main Stem Upper Delaware River which currently has guide licensing fees from three agencies - NYS DEC, PA FBC and NPS -- and I was not speaking to marine regs or inland freshwater rivers and streams which do not border other state's waters.

So do mine Tony. Slap an electric trolling motor on a canoe and NY requires you have a Pilot License (Dept. of Parks, another agency) and have the vessel inspected. Another triple digit annual fee. If you have a USCG license, they waive the test for the Pilot License and just charge the fee.

As you know, the Upper Delaware is part of three jurisdictions. The main stem is NPS, the branches are states, hence the different requirements. Stay out of PA and NPS water and you only need a NY license. Don't use a PA Fish Commission Access on the border water and you don't need a PA guide permit (it's not a license). Buy property for an access or lease an access for substantially more than $400 a year, your call.

Equitable? What's that? How about having to pay NYS income tax as a non resident? $400 is a small price for the privilege to commercially use any PFBC or state park boat access in the commonwealth. The residents of PA who own boats have a set dollar amount from each registration fee dedicated directly to public access (I think it's $2) in addition to the other money budgeted for that purpose. Would it be better for you if the PFBC simply disallowed any commercial use of their accesses?

Sportfishing is a regulated industry. With regulations come fees. Remove the regulations and you can eliminate the fees, but it doesn't work both ways.
 
Equitable? What's that? How about having to pay NYS income tax as a non resident?

You use NY to earn an income but don't feel you should be taxed on that income?
Sure, portions of the D are in BOTH NY and PA, but couldn't you just claim a 50/50 split on the income earned on a trip on those portions?
You earn money in Jersey, shouldn't you give the residents of that state their fair share? That state affords you the opportunity to earn money...

It seems equitable to me.
 
NY requires a guide license on border waters if you ingress or egress the river from NY. The same as PA now does.

The insurance requirement is minimal. The coverage is to protect the client. Personally, I think anything less than a mill is not enough.

I really have no problem with the insurance requirement. Anyone that would guide without insurance is just a damn fool.
What I do have a problem with is the discriminatory fees for out of state guides on border waters that for years, Pa guides enjoyed reciprocity. 5 year license in NY is $100 5 year Pa license is $2000,
Tell me how fair that is.

Several years ago, I had a Pa dentist and the Speaker of the Pa. House of Reps in my boat. I asked the dentist what it cost to renew his dental license, His answer: $35.00 The Speaker wondered how can that inequity possibly be. I felt like throwing him out of the boat as it was an act of the legislature that passed the bill, PF and B didnt just arbitrarily enact it. It had to be voted on. So how is that for fucked up. $35.00 for a dentist that probaly pulls in over half a mil per yr. vs me who gets freaking peanuts compared.
 
Anyone that would guide without insurance is just a damn fool.

Agreed, but not required here in NJ if you just want to hang out a shingle and call yourself a guide. But our shop covers our guides fully each year with insurance, thankfully. I wonder how many guide in NJ without it? Most, would be my guess.
 
You use NY to earn an income but don't feel you should be taxed on that income?
Sure, portions of the D are in BOTH NY and PA, but couldn't you just claim a 50/50 split on the income earned on a trip on those portions?
You earn money in Jersey, shouldn't you give the residents of that state their fair share? That state affords you the opportunity to earn money...

It seems equitable to me.

Well, because it may seem equitable to you doesn't necessarily make it so :) Also, NJ doesn't collect income tax from nonresidents. PA collects income tax on income earned from all states, not just what is earned in PA. I wonder if transient/temporary workers in NY who are paid by an out of state corp pay NY income tax?

Anyway, this thread has gotten way off track from the original purpose of letting PA anglers know that there are bills in the legislature that they should contact their state representatives about. At the beginning of the thread are links to a newspaper article that gives an overview of the bill and a link to simplify contacting your reps. Also take the time to read the bill. Below is Trout Unlimited's explanation.

Don't hand over your fly box | Trout Unlimited - Conserving coldwater fisheries
 
I wouldn't worry about what I think...
NJ Division of Taxation - Income Tax - Nonresidents

Have you got a good tax attorney? I'd suggest your bud, GB... Tell him to start reading here:
http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/pdf/current/1040nri.pdf

You've made some comments on this thread, but not one of them is even remotely on topic. That makes you an internet troll, yes?

There's a big difference between paying and filing. I use a CPA firm in NJ. Thanks for the advise.

Now back to the topic that some feel a need to distract from.

Pennsylvania anglers should become familiar with House Bill 1576.

Pennsylvania legislature takes aim at wildlife agencies - mcall.com

Votes on these issues can be called in the legislature as early as March 10. Time is critical for you to contact your legislator.

Find Your Legislator - PA General Assembly
 
You've made some comments on this thread, but not one of them is even remotely on topic. That makes you an internet troll, yes?

There's a big difference between paying and filing. I use a CPA firm in NJ. Thanks for the advise.

Now back to the topic that some feel a need to distract from.
Who brought up income taxes?
SO stop trying to distract us...
Can one be a troll in his own thread?
 
Who brought up income taxes?
SO stop trying to distract us...
Can one be a troll in his own thread?

In response to another post that was at least on the fishing/fly fishing topic, so it's not trolling in one's own thread. And I see, you are still trying to go off the topic of PA House Bill 1576 and related legislative issues that PA anglers should take the time to learn about, and then hopefully contact their state representative and let them know how they feel.
 
The conductor, Joe D, struggles to keep his train on the tracks...but whats that up ahead? FF diverting the tracks straight into NEFF Valley


train1.jpg
 
In response to another post that was at least on the fishing/fly fishing topic, so it's not trolling in one's own thread. And I see, you are still trying to go off the topic of PA House Bill 1576....

But you were ALL about keeping this thread on track when you brought gas drilling workers into the thread, right? ;)

I wonder if transient/temporary workers in NY who are paid by an out of state corp pay NY income tax?

The ole do as I say, not as I do...
 
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