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  1. #49
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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Jim gave me a ride to my car coming in at Balls Eddy one night when my shuttle didn't show. Very solid guy and has spent more time unpaid on this fight than anyone would.

    Bottom line is we have had a freakishly dry spring and agree a thermal plan need to be in place but it is way better now than it was ever was.


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  2. #50
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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Hi Ross,

    All good points.

    I clearly have a bias towards the models, as I think they are useful and powerful. Do not discount their value too quickly as the decree parties recognize them as relevant in their decision making process. As I mentioned, they can be useful.

    The NY reports a step in the direction that you suggest. I tend to trust their data, although find it incomplete.

    There are no other studies that I know about.

    As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think one of the problems is that TU has lost their way on the Delaware and certainly does not spend the money here required to do the study you suggest.

    The Nature Conservancy has continued to study the Neversink, they may have some useful information for you.

    USGS has also done a huge amount of field work with their studies of the dwarf wedge mussels.

    You would think that TU would be interested and have money for trout. One of the issues with biological systems is that they need to be studied for many years, that means lots of money. I know they have concentrated on brookies the last few years. I am sure someone here is better qualified to speak for TU than I am.

    I have tried for years to find some money to develop a website that could be used as a repository for all of the various groups to store and share their temperature data. Over the last 15 years, in addition to the USGS gauge data, there probably has been an average of 50-60 additional gauges sitting in the river. Anyone have the expertise to build that site? I can get USGS, PA Fish & Boat, NY DEC, DRBC, and many others to share their data if a sight became available.

    Did you figure out how to get the data off the USGS website for data pre-2007? I can help you with that if you did not get it.


  3. #51
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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Spinner View Post
    Hi Ross,

    All good points.

    I clearly have a bias towards the models, as I think they are useful and powerful. Do not discount their value too quickly as the decree parties recognize them as relevant in their decision making process. As I mentioned, they can be useful.

    The NY reports a step in the direction that you suggest. I tend to trust their data, although find it incomplete.

    There are no other studies that I know about.

    As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think one of the problems is that TU has lost their way on the Delaware and certainly does not spend the money here required to do the study you suggest.

    The Nature Conservancy has continued to study the Neversink, they may have some useful information for you.

    USGS has also done a huge amount of field work with their studies of the dwarf wedge mussels.

    You would think that TU would be interested and have money for trout. One of the issues with biological systems is that they need to be studied for many years, that means lots of money. I know they have concentrated on brookies the last few years. I am sure someone here is better qualified to speak for TU than I am.

    I have tried for years to find some money to develop a website that could be used as a repository for all of the various groups to store and share their temperature data. Over the last 15 years, in addition to the USGS gauge data, there probably has been an average of 50-60 additional gauges sitting in the river. Anyone have the expertise to build that site? I can get USGS, PA Fish & Boat, NY DEC, DRBC, and many others to share their data if a sight became available.

    Did you figure out how to get the data off the USGS website for data pre-2007? I can help you with that if you did not get it.
    I greatly appreciate all the time and info. I agree that models are helpful, but with so much great data over so long a period, we have the real stuff to look at, and I always prefer that.

    Yes, I did figure out how to get the data.

    It does seem incredible that TU can have full-time staff to oversee the Musconetcong River, arguably one of the least important east coast trout rivers, while the Delaware system gets no support from them. This is badly skewed.

    Every few years it seems we get another crisis here. People are excited. Letters are written, petitions are signed, then we all go back to sleep. The few volunteers trying to address the ongoing issues simply aren't enough.

    I think a full-scale study of the interaction between flows and temperatures needs to be produced by our side, with emphasis on what improvements have been seen with FFMP, and where we need to go from here. I don't think it would be too expensive either.

    The USEPA has a collection site for volunteer water monitoring data. Look at Home | STORET/WQX | Water | US EPA We have put a lot of our own data there.


  4. #52
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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Hi Ross,

    USEPA site looks useful, thanks.

    Jim


  5. #53
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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Spinner View Post
    Hi All,

    Mostly useful discussions the last few days over the current condition of the Delaware and releases from the NYC reservoirs. It still troubles me that there is so much incorrect information out there after all of these years. It is obvious that some have not even taken the time to read the FFMP.

    It is not an easy read, but it is not long:

    http://water.usgs.gov/osw/odrm/docum..._Agreement.pdf

    As always, respectful questions will be answered.

    It has been asked: Do I think we are better off now on the system? No question in my mind that we are much better off.

    Many years ago when I sat on a committee to help develop an new operating plan for the Delaware River Basin Commission someone spoke up and said they felt that "Education is the most important aspect of what we can do". At the time I thought about it for a bit and decided that it was a good idea, but certainly not the most important thing that we could do.

    I have since changed my mind! Education a public and a core group of caring fishermen is the most important thing we can do to move forward to improve releases and the FFMP.

    You have all read about OASIS and DSS, come and see a demonstration!

    How much do you all care? I am going to host a seminar/question/answer meeting on Friday, May 22nd from 7-9 pm. The venue in Hancock to be determined. Please give me a show of hands if you are interested. I think the best way to change something is to completely understand how it works, both fundamentally and politically. It may cost you a night of fishing, but refreshments will be served.

    Some highlights and lowlights:

    The good:

    All is not lost: On June 1st the releases should restore to Table F or G and summer releases will be 500 cfs on the WB, 140 cfs on the EB and 110 cfs on the Neversink. (Compare those numbers to June 1st releases under Rev 1, Cannonsville 45 cfs, Rev ? 160 cfs, Rev 7 225 flow minimum at Hale Eddy) How can this be?? Come and find out.

    FFMP fundamentally changed the concept of NYC water management. The idea that when there is more water in the system FFMP would allow for more releases is the core idea behind the FFMP. I think it is working.

    The Bad:

    The EB is particularly suffering under FFMP Table A today. Rev 7 had a minimum flow at Harvard of 175 on the EB, today the flow is less than 90.

    There is no Thermal Protection Plan built into the system, even though a proposal has been on the table for 2 years.

    How can we improve:

    Thermal Protection should be implemented

    Get Trout Unlimited back involved in the process, in my opinion they have lost their way.

    Require more transparency and eliminate or at least reduce the NYC DEP black box that they are allowed to operate under.

    Require NYC to produce the OST Summary on a weekly basis. This will help reduce the "black box"

    http://water.usgs.gov/osw/odrm/docum...2015-04-20.pdf

    There are new and updated OASIS and DSS models, the more they get used the more we can all gain.

    So, what do you think, is it worth the effort, or am I wasting my time?

    Jim
    Hi Jim

    Where are we meeting Friday night ?

    Thanks

    Joe T


  6. #54
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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Hi All,

    Seminar is in my office in Hancock, Friday at 7:00 pm.

    So far I think there are 6 people who said they will make it.

    No one who can shoot video has volunteered.

    Send me a PM if you intend to attend.

    Jim


  7. #55
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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Are they diverting water from Cannonsville? With such a minimum release we went from 99% to 96% with some water coming in at Walton. Math doesn't work unless water is sent underground.


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  8. #56
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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Hi Ausable,

    You are right.

    NYC has been diverting water from Cannonsville for the last two months.

    The last month they have taken about 480 million gallons a day.

    This time of year the quality of Cannonsville allows them to take lots of it and conserve the other reservoirs for later in the year.

    Pepacton now rates as the highest quality of the three, surpassing the Neversink.

    Cannonsville is still the reservoir of choice for releases to meet the Montague Target.

    NYC can be more liberal with Cannonsville water as it is still the reservoir most likely to refill.

    About half of the water that falls in the basin goes into Cannonsville.

    Jim


  9. #57
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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Jim,
    Thank for having us, umm, me at your office Friday for a very informative talk about the agreement, and politics of it. Thank you for taking the time.


  10. #58
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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Hi Blue,

    I guess you can see where one of my lectures rates compared to a green drake spinner fall!!!

    Was fun, I think we will have monthly meetings of the "Delaware River Research Group"!!!

    All are welcome. Bring a laptop to crunch some data.

    Jim


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