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05-13-2015 #13
Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....
Jim thanks for the post. I do have one question... around what happens June 1. You wrote the following.
All is not lost: On June 1st the releases should restore to Table F or G and summer releases will be 500 cfs on the WB, 140 cfs on the EB and 110 cfs on the Neversink. (Compare those numbers to June 1st releases under Rev 1, Cannonsville 45 cfs, Rev ? 160 cfs, Rev 7 225 flow minimum at Hale Eddy) How can this be?? Come and find out.
My question is why will we go from table 4a to table 4f or 4g when June 1st rolls around? We are in 4a now as the Forecast Available Water (FAW) is 0 MGD. To go to 4f or 4g the city will need to go from 0MGD to 75 or 100 MGD of Forecast Available Water on June 1? I hope you are right. Sticking with FAW of 0 is Table 4a at means as I read it 200 to 225CFS max release across the summer.
I'm not trying to argue this plan is better or worse... Just trying to continue to understand it.
Jim....I completely agree with you that we need a thermal relief release built into the plan. As I write this the immediate temperature situation is over (Lordville probably hit 78 or so degrees F yesterday... reading + 4 degrees) and we are getting a mere 25CFS bump up in the release. As they say.. ."too little... too late!"
"That wasn't your fly... was it?
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05-13-2015 #14
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Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....
JC I agree completely. Years ago whe n this same nonsense was going on I was saying the same thing. All these guys do is bitch and complain. I heard repeatedly that FUDR was going to succeed where big spinner had failed. Now I support FUDR and hope they can get changes but it seems to me they have come to realize this is not an easy issue to resolve. Look Jim offers to do a webinar and the response "post it to Vimeo". SERIOUSLY!!!
Rossk says sue them!!! Ok I can see his point and pretty sure I said the same thing 5 years ago as well. Here is the issue though. Suing these guys will take a lot of money and time and resources. Who will fund this and put in the time if we can't even get folks to attend a webinar or help set up a video system. So to all the haters out there who claim to love the river. Maybe it's time to stop blaming the one guy who has tried to do anything and step up yourselves because 11 years of bitching on NEFF hasn't accomplished very much
"Angling is extremely time consuming. That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane
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05-13-2015 #15
Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....
I'm looking for a straight answer.
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So, if you look at the Hale Eddy USGS chart which shows the actual level for May 12th 2015 vs. the 50 year median and mean levels for this date, you would suggest that this is the driest spring in the Catskills in the fifty plus years for our region?
If not, then why is that station under 50% the historical median / mean data?
Please advise.
Thank you.
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Yes, Jim. I realize that.
Murphy of NYC DEP stated that at the UDC presentation last year.
Last question.
Were you the person, along with Peter Kolesar, that suggested and / or brokered the current FFMP plan that the system is now under which have tables (4A, 4B, 4C, etc...) with water releases to be released by New York City prior to June 1st (i.e. < 175cfs from Cannonsville) or was that solely implemented by New York City?
Prior to June 1st, who was the person that recommended those water release numbers?
Please advise.
Thank you.
TR
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05-13-2015 #16
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Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....
I realize it is easy to say "sue" and much harder to do. No reflection on Jim Serio and his work. But the funding exists. Sadly, it is not being made available. If you go on the Trout Unlimited website, there is a whole section on the Delaware but not a single mention of water flow or temperature problems. With this level of inattention, it is no wonder the job isn't getting done.
In my opinion, you need both education AND hardcore advocacy (lawyers). Otherwise the states and NYC will never take you seriously. They do things because they have to, not because its right. You must have both the carrot and the stick. Right now the one side is totally lacking.
Personally, I thought the river system was in much better shape prior to FFMP. It just doesn't seem to be used as it was intended. Personal observation, nothing more.
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05-13-2015 #17
Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....
Data attached.
So, if you look at the Hale Eddy USGS chart which shows the actual level for May 12th 2015 vs. the 50 year median and mean levels for this date, you would suggest that this is the driest spring in the Catskills in the fifty plus years for our region?
If not, then why is that station under 50% the historical median / mean data?
Please advise.
Thank you.
Were you the person, along with Peter Kolesar, that suggested and / or brokered the current FFMP plan that the system is now under which have tables (4A, 4B, 4C, etc...) with water releases to be released by New York City prior to June 1st (i.e. < 175cfs from Cannonsville) or was that solely implemented by New York City?
Prior to June 1st, who was the person that recommended those water release numbers?
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05-13-2015 #18
Just finished a River Runs Through it!
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Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....
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05-13-2015 #19
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Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....
Tony your data makes the point for what exactly. What happens in a normal spring. The reservoirs are filled and spilling. The temps are cooler. We have more rain. So we have an anomaly this year that is causing a bad situation on the Delaware. Needs to get fixed but what goes on here and other boards is ridiculous and really not helping anyone. I have no doubt you care about the river but your enemy isn't on this board. It's the folks that don't want you to have any water at all.
"Angling is extremely time consuming. That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane
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05-13-2015 #20
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Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....
[/ATTACH][QUOTE=NJFred;251329]Jim thanks for the post. I do have one question... around what happens June 1. You wrote the following.
All is not lost: On June 1st the releases should restore to Table F or G and summer releases will be 500 cfs on the WB, 140 cfs on the EB and 110 cfs on the Neversink. (Compare those numbers to June 1st releases under Rev 1, Cannonsville 45 cfs, Rev ? 160 cfs, Rev 7 225 flow minimum at Hale Eddy) How can this be?? Come and find out.
My question is why will we go from table 4a to table 4f or 4g when June 1st rolls around? We are in 4a now as the Forecast Available Water (FAW) is 0 MGD. To go to 4f or 4g the city will need to go from 0MGD to 75 or 100 MGD of Forecast Available Water on June 1? I hope you are right. Sticking with FAW of 0 is Table 4a at means as I read it 200 to 225CFS max release across the summer.
I'm not trying to argue this plan is better or worse... Just trying to continue to understand it.
Hi Fred,
This is a great insightful question and gets to the core of both the good and bad of the FFMP/OST.
I am attaching a quick and dirty excel spreadsheet that attempts to illustrate where I think we may be on June 1st. I have made a couple of very conservative guesses as to how much water NYC will predict for inflow and diversions for the water year.
[ATTACH]11690
This should put us in Table G for the start of the year.
I still expect the reservoirs to spill if we get even just a minimal amount of rain in the next two weeks, so we may be much higher in actual total storage level.
A lot more on this later, but off to work!!!!
jim
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05-13-2015 #21
Stupid is forever, I should know.
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05-13-2015 #22
Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....
Tony is a guide, no?
So Mac, my guess is that he wants to work.
He's not looking to take, take, take, a fracking lease, and get money for nothing....
He wants to work.
He sees.the reservoirs at 98 percent capacity, but his place of work is bone dry.
And he sees forum moderators, ahem, at fly fishing sites, ridicule alternatives that would reduce NYC's dependency on that water that's sitting in the reservoirs, while he aint able to work.
Since when did guys like TR, who rant about wanting to work become unreasonable, and the problem, and guys like FF, who would sign a gas lease on the streambed, if he could, become reasonable and understandable?
Explain.
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05-13-2015 #23
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Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....
Beetle Stop
Seriously dude stop.
You want to spout off on the forum and throw out snarky comments just don't need complain when they come back at you. The only thing you are good at is deflecting the issue. I clearly stated tony care about the river but my post is very clear. You would be hard pressed to disagree. As for your alternative solution, you realize NYC had applied a years ago for a waiver not to build a filtration system and was granted one by the eps. Now you want to have them build a desalination plant. All so they won't take more water from the reservoir. This is not a serious proposal you boob
"Angling is extremely time consuming. That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane
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05-13-2015 #24
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Well unless you are catering to the South Jersey crowd, you better make those "crispy Taylor Ham sandwiches".
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