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  1. #1
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    Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Hi All,

    Mostly useful discussions the last few days over the current condition of the Delaware and releases from the NYC reservoirs. It still troubles me that there is so much incorrect information out there after all of these years. It is obvious that some have not even taken the time to read the FFMP.

    It is not an easy read, but it is not long:

    http://water.usgs.gov/osw/odrm/docum..._Agreement.pdf

    As always, respectful questions will be answered.

    It has been asked: Do I think we are better off now on the system? No question in my mind that we are much better off.

    Many years ago when I sat on a committee to help develop an new operating plan for the Delaware River Basin Commission someone spoke up and said they felt that "Education is the most important aspect of what we can do". At the time I thought about it for a bit and decided that it was a good idea, but certainly not the most important thing that we could do.

    I have since changed my mind! Education a public and a core group of caring fishermen is the most important thing we can do to move forward to improve releases and the FFMP.

    You have all read about OASIS and DSS, come and see a demonstration!

    How much do you all care? I am going to host a seminar/question/answer meeting on Friday, May 22nd from 7-9 pm. The venue in Hancock to be determined. Please give me a show of hands if you are interested. I think the best way to change something is to completely understand how it works, both fundamentally and politically. It may cost you a night of fishing, but refreshments will be served.

    Some highlights and lowlights:

    The good:

    All is not lost: On June 1st the releases should restore to Table F or G and summer releases will be 500 cfs on the WB, 140 cfs on the EB and 110 cfs on the Neversink. (Compare those numbers to June 1st releases under Rev 1, Cannonsville 45 cfs, Rev ? 160 cfs, Rev 7 225 flow minimum at Hale Eddy) How can this be?? Come and find out.

    FFMP fundamentally changed the concept of NYC water management. The idea that when there is more water in the system FFMP would allow for more releases is the core idea behind the FFMP. I think it is working.

    The Bad:

    The EB is particularly suffering under FFMP Table A today. Rev 7 had a minimum flow at Harvard of 175 on the EB, today the flow is less than 90.

    There is no Thermal Protection Plan built into the system, even though a proposal has been on the table for 2 years.

    How can we improve:

    Thermal Protection should be implemented

    Get Trout Unlimited back involved in the process, in my opinion they have lost their way.

    Require more transparency and eliminate or at least reduce the NYC DEP black box that they are allowed to operate under.

    Require NYC to produce the OST Summary on a weekly basis. This will help reduce the "black box"

    http://water.usgs.gov/osw/odrm/docum...2015-04-20.pdf

    There are new and updated OASIS and DSS models, the more they get used the more we can all gain.

    So, what do you think, is it worth the effort, or am I wasting my time?

    Jim

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    TR's Avatar
    TR is offline "You can observe a lot just by watching." Y. Berra
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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Tell you what Jim.

    Hire or have a videographer volunteer to record your presentation and upload it to vimeo or youtube.

    Easy.

    Let UDC did with you and Kolesar and again with Murphy.

    I'd love to hear why we are in the predicament of water temps over 70 in Hancock for the past week with the reservoirs at 98% capacity and Hale Eddy USGS is far below the 50 year median / mean.

    Good luck.


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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Hi TR,

    Just show up and contribute to the discussion.

    That would be most helpful and productive.

    Taping is a good idea though, it might even be watched by 2 or 3 people.

    jim


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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Spinner View Post
    Hi TR,

    Just show up and contribute to the discussion.

    That would be most helpful and productive.


    Still no answer to my simple question about ample NYC reservoir storage of 98% and Hale Eddy below the 50 year median / mean for May 11th Jim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Spinner View Post

    Taping is a good idea though, it might even be watched by 2 or 3 people.

    jim


    You underestimate yourself Jim.

    That's not like you.


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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Hi Tony,

    Not sure what answer you are looking for.

    When we have a dry spring, which we have had, the rivers will be below the mean and or probably the median too.

    When we have a wet spring, not this year, the rivers will be above the median and/or mean.

    The mean tends to be larger than the median in river systems as really large flow events will skew the mean away from the median.

    NYC strives to start the water year (June 1st) with full reservoirs so in a dry year they release less water.

    Hope this helps,

    Jim


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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Spinner View Post
    Hi Tony,

    Not sure what answer you are looking for.

    When we have a dry spring, which we have had, the rivers will be below the mean and or probably the median too.

    When we have a wet spring, not this year, the rivers will be above the median and/or mean.

    The mean tends to be larger than the median in river systems as really large flow events will skew the mean away from the median.

    NYC strives to start the water year (June 1st) with full reservoirs so in a dry year they release less water.

    Hope this helps,

    Jim
    Croton system came back online this week, no?

    And reservoirs are 98 percent full.

    Lockheed Martin recently said that it has cost effective desalination technology...

    So if New York City is doing absolutely nothing to reduce its dependence on the Catskills, a finite source of water...

    And jobs are being lost upstate when the reservoirs are 98 percent full...

    Shouldnt Tony be outraged?

    Or what?


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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    I would just like to come out and say a few things. First- for those that come on this site and ridicule Jim Serio- GET REAL. Jim was the original advocate for this river and was out there fighting for better flows at at a time that many didn't even know what the Delaware was. He STARTED the dialogue and political debate when it came to delaware flows and now FUDR and the large fishing base it represents is piggy backing off of the work he didn't just help- but largely brought into effect. Also comical- is the fact that many that ridicule this man are people that didn't donate, appear, or even show up for the stream cleanups hosted by FUDR at the One bug or other events, and simply are coming on here venting while they refuse to volunteer their backs or voice for a more productive cause to advocate for the watershed to the city. Hypocrites.

    A quick story about Jim to let you know the kind of guy he is. My dad and I stayed at West branch Angler in 1996 which was the year the huge brown was caught that is mounted above the bar and it was caught the same week we were there. We didn't catch a thing but we fished hard, had a blast, and I got a flybox with a few flies before we left. The fly box had west branch angler's number on it and when we got home I began calling WBA on a daily basis asking how the fishing was. Jim Serio was working the shop then and used to hear me out as I told him "worms were working " down on shadow lake in Monmouth County NJ and would tell me what was hatching up there. After calling him for a month straight, he called my dad and said a kid was calling him long distance every month and figured he would let my dad know- and soon after I got a kit of fly tying materials and flies in the mail from Jim that he sent for free to keep me interested in the sport. The guy is grade A and always fought for the fishery, yet people on here are bashing him who haven't attended a single meeting or any other conservation event to support the fishery. Laughable. Jim put in more effort than anyone and never asked for a single bit of gratitude in response. Show a little respect.


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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Spinner View Post
    Hi TR,

    Just show up and contribute to the discussion.

    That would be most helpful and productive.

    Taping is a good idea though, it might even be watched by 2 or 3 people.

    jim
    jim, if you want a lot of views for your videos, i know a guy named beaver who can help with that...

    But seriously, he does make some good videos.


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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Quote Originally Posted by flyI4 View Post
    I would just like to come out and say a few things. First- for those that come on this site and ridicule Jim Serio- GET REAL. Jim was the original advocate for this river and was out there fighting for better flows at at a time that many didn't even know what the Delaware was. He STARTED the dialogue and political debate when it came to delaware flows and now FUDR and the large fishing base it represents is piggy backing off of the work he didn't just help- but largely brought into effect. Also comical- is the fact that many that ridicule this man are people that didn't donate, appear, or even show up for the stream cleanups hosted by FUDR at the One bug or other events, and simply are coming on here venting while they refuse to volunteer their backs or voice for a more productive cause to advocate for the watershed to the city. Hypocrites.

    A quick story about Jim to let you know the kind of guy he is. My dad and I stayed at West branch Angler in 1996 which was the year the huge brown was caught that is mounted above the bar and it was caught the same week we were there. We didn't catch a thing but we fished hard, had a blast, and I got a flybox with a few flies before we left. The fly box had west branch angler's number on it and when we got home I began calling WBA on a daily basis asking how the fishing was. Jim Serio was working the shop then and used to hear me out as I told him "worms were working " down on shadow lake in Monmouth County NJ and would tell me what was hatching up there. After calling him for a month straight, he called my dad and said a kid was calling him long distance every month and figured he would let my dad know- and soon after I got a kit of fly tying materials and flies in the mail from Jim that he sent for free to keep me interested in the sport. The guy is grade A and always fought for the fishery, yet people on here are bashing him who haven't attended a single meeting or any other conservation event to support the fishery. Laughable. Jim put in more effort than anyone and never asked for a single bit of gratitude in response. Show a little respect.
    Just to add to your thoughts...
    The guy gets it from all the folks who just can't be satisfied... and he responds to their barbed questions calmly and matter of factly.... over and over and over again. I don't know how he does it.

    And on a personal note, I was headed west some time ago and realized very late I was going to be on a plane and I didn't own a 3 or 4 piece rod. Jim graciously offered to let me borrow one of his. I still have it... Just kidding... But, what a nice thing to do...

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Fanatic View Post
    Just to add to your thoughts...
    The guy gets it from all the folks who just can't be satisfied... and he responds to their barbed questions calmly and matter of factly.... over and over and over again. I don't know how he does it.

    And on a personal note, I was headed west some time ago and realized very late I was going to be on a plane and I didn't own a 3 or 4 piece rod. Jim graciously offered to let me borrow one of his. I still have it... Just kidding... But, what a nice thing to do...

    What did you need the rod for?


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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Quote Originally Posted by golden beetle View Post
    What did you need the rod for?
    My s and c are sticking...
    It was a long flight and I needed a snack for the trip.

    it was supposed to be S-C-R-O-D

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

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    Re: Delaware River FFMP/OST: the good, the bad .....

    Hi guys,

    Thanks for the kudos, they made me blush. Great story FlyI!! I remember it well~~always wondered if any of it stuck!!!

    The bashing goes with the territory, this is such an emotional topic, I guess, I am used to it, although it does get tiresome at times. Hence my long absences from this board at times.

    I must admit TR can go over the top. For instance, he calls me and leaves a message asking for a copy of Table 4A, which I send it him, knowing that he is going to post it and somehow use it to bash me and the FFMP. But, his videos might be a good idea. Probably better than trying to hold a seminar.

    Wanted: Someone to show me how to set up to do video in my office, probably with the ability to show the monitor while I jabber on about what is on the screen.

    jim


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