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  1. #13
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    Re: Sign the petition

    Quote Originally Posted by golden beetle View Post
    Did you sign?

    Come on.

    Let em know that if they fear a drought this badly, they need to make plans for the future when it actually could get really bad.
    Because the keep their reservoirs full, they can fear a drought less... so much less expensive.

    If the fishermen want the water so bad, why don't they come up with the millions to build a desalination plant?

    Crowdfund it...

    You want EVERYONE else to pay tax money to build this thing---- to support your fishing hobby...

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

  2. #14
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    Re: Sign the petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Fanatic View Post
    Because the keep their reservoirs full, they can fear a drought less... so much less expensive.

    If the fishermen want the water so bad, why don't they come up with the millions to build a desalination plant?

    Crowdfund it...

    You want EVERYONE else to pay tax money to build this thing---- to support your fishing hobby...
    Very thought provoking.

    So let me ask, before proceeding...

    You're opposed to taking steps to reduce NYC's dependency on water from the Catskills?


  3. #15
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    Re: Sign the petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Fanatic View Post
    Because the keep their reservoirs full, they can fear a drought less... so much less expensive.

    If the fishermen want the water so bad, why don't they come up with the millions to build a desalination plant?

    Crowdfund it...

    You want EVERYONE else to pay tax money to build this thing---- to support your fishing hobby...

    Now, unless I'm mistaken about your opposition to alternatives that would reduce NYC's water dependency on the Catskills, let me make my argument.

    Water is a public resource.

    In a natural state, there is a wonderful trout fishery that existed in the Catskills, prior to the damming in the 30s, 40s and 50s.

    Brook trout.

    So in a natural state, we have a beautiful fishery in the Catskills.

    Collectively, we value nature.

    Now if you feel that the costs of conserving what exists in nature should be carried by a few of us, perhaps you could argue for higher use taxes, for the fishery, like licensing fees?

    Would that suffice?

    Or do you feel that you should not have to contribute to anything that might preserve a coldwater fishery upstate?

    Make that argument, I am interested in hearing your thoughts.

    Let me make a few guesses about your values here...

    Perhaps you'd say that the fishery is manmade, and that the brown trout and rainbow trout that are in the D are not native to the area?

    Which is true.

    But I see that as a compromise we have made with NYC, and the progress that NYC represents that benefits us all as well...

    Just because the natural state no longer supports brook trout, does not mean that the public concedes the trout fishery entirely...

    Ok, so now it can support browns and bows.

    Let's keep it that way, so we can fish for browns and bows with our kids.

    Is that ok?

    Try to propose a reason why we should sacrifice what remains of the former brook trout fishery, even if it now supports different species......

    Finally, do you think fishing is not a public good?

    Perhaps it interferes with your agenda?

    If it were gone, you could frack your land and get rich without working, like the rest of us have to work?

    And one more question... about public goods and parks and that sort of thing...

    Do you think state parks should be paid for entirely by use taxes? Just the people who go there pay, and everyone else does nothing?

    Do you feel the same way about national parks?

    Have I been robbed by those who have been to Mt. Rushmore, because my tax dollars go toward preserving it, or Yellowstone too?

    I havent been to either place, so why should I have to pay for it?

    And should I distinguish Mt. Rushmore from Yellowstone, and refuse to pay for its maintenance as a national monument, because it was manmade?

    Like our trout fishery?

    Or is our trout fishery and Catskills tradition more like Yellowstone than Mt. Rushmore?

    I feel a connection to Theodore Gordon, for example, when I fish a quill Gordon, whether or not the dams were there when he was fishing... I'd have to guess he was fishing for brook trout on the Neversink...

    So the tradition is deeper than just the species of fish, that we are seeking to conserve.

    http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/s...e-river-system


  4. #16
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    Re: Sign the petition

    But John you are clearly trying to deflect the point. You are against Fracking unless it means you can have more cold water for your hobby.. That about sums it up doesn't it.


    Quote Originally Posted by golden beetle View Post
    So you should be all for it.

    Did you sign, FF?

    (To be clear, the reverse osmosis technology from Lockheed does use methane gas for its filters - which you are objecting to - but at a fraction of the San Diego plant's costs, which was built by an Israeli company.. Its feasible.)


    "Angling is extremely time consuming. That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane

  5. #17
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    Re: Sign the petition

    So this other source has to be built and it costs money to build. Let me ask does this new technology just take care of the salt removal or does it also filter out any contaminants in the process. By reasonable cost what exactly are we looking at. 10 billion dollars to build and another x amount of billions to operate.

    Quote Originally Posted by golden beetle View Post
    Tom, if New York City is going to act like a drought is imminent, when the reservoirs are 98 percent full, we need to ask whether it isnt reasonable to demand that they build desalination plants, like they're doing in San Diego today. Their plant will be online in 2016.

    It doesn't take long to build. Lockheed Martin says that it has developed cost effective desalination technology, and to me, it makes sense to put pressure on NYC to invest in innovation and technology, especially if it saves jobs upstate.

    98 percent full.

    And they're acting like its a California drought..

    So why not prepare for it if we're gonna cause folks upstate - who actually work and arent looking to sign a fracking lease - to lose their livelihoods?


    "Angling is extremely time consuming. That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane

  6. #18
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    Re: Sign the petition

    Quote Originally Posted by MACFLY View Post
    But John you are clearly trying to deflect the point. You are against Fracking unless it means you can have more cold water for your hobby.. That about sums it up doesn't it.
    Mac, stop.

    Seriously dude, you gotta stop.

    I want to see people who are hard working, and depend upon the river, back to work.

    Ok?

    Can you accept that?

    I have fished the D once this year. I am busy, and the conditions have absolutely no effect upon my fishing schedule.

    As to substance, let me be clear.

    First, I am not absolutely against fracking.

    Second, I found information about desalination yesterday from a google search.

    If you want to criticize me, rest your critique on that.

    I dont understand the costs and benefits of desalination.

    OK?

    I have no idea what the costs are.

    Lockheed Martin says it can do it for cheap.

    Let's research what it means together, ok?

    Have fun with that.


  7. #19
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    Re: Sign the petition

    Actually this is not really that new. I had a neighbor that worked for a company called ARANCO and put up these plants in the middle east. It was back in the Regan Era. Its just new to the US which has a mentallity that resources have an ulimited supply and will never run out.

    To look good is to fish good

  8. #20
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    Re: Sign the petition

    Quote Originally Posted by WBDluver View Post
    Actually this is not really that new. I had a neighbor that worked for a company called ARANCO and put up these plants in the middle east. It was back in the Regan Era. Its just new to the US which has a mentallity that resources have an ulimited supply and will never run out.
    The desalination technology from Lockheed Martin is exciting stuff.

    I bring it up because there appear to be alternatives available now, that are cost effective, that would reduce NYC's dependence on water from the Catskills.

    Graphene nanotechnology makes desalination 100 times more efficient | Green Prophet


  9. #21
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  10. #22
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    Re: Sign the petition

    So why not look at buying the water you want from the people of NYC.

    They get $3.70 for 100cf. So, 500cf= $18.50. $18.50 * by 60 seconds = $1100. $1100 * 60 minutes = $66,600 * 24 = $1,598,400.

    500cfs for a day is $1,598,400.

    The people of NYC deserve to be compensated for their water, yes?

    Buying that much, you could probably get a deal.

    A million a day.

    Why not just save the water and take that money and give the guides a check. A million bucks a day can pay a lot of guides to not row a boat. They could do something else on the side in all their free time.

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

  11. #23
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    Re: Sign the petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Fanatic View Post
    So why not look at buying the water you want from the people of NYC.

    They get $3.70 for 100cf. So, 500cf= $18.50. $18.50 * by 60 seconds = $1100. $1100 * 60 minutes = $66,600 * 24 = $1,598,400.

    500cfs for a day is $1,598,400.

    The people of NYC deserve to be compensated for their water, yes?

    Buying that much, you could probably get a deal.

    A million a day.

    Why not just save the water and take that money and give the guides a check. A million bucks a day can pay a lot of guides to not row a boat. They could do something else on the side in all their free time.
    Its important to be real about this, and I dont have time to reply to your nonsense.

    Water is not privately owned by the City of New York.

    It is a public resource, and it is allocated democratically.

    Markets can be used to facilitate efficient allocation, not to impede it, as you are suggesting.

    Sign the petition.

    Already 330 signatures.

    Petition Save The Delaware River System


  12. #24
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    Re: Sign the petition

    Quote Originally Posted by golden beetle View Post
    Its important to be real about this, and I dont have time to reply to your nonsense.

    Water is not privately owned by the City of New York.

    It is a public resource, and it is allocated democratically.

    Markets can be used to facilitate efficient allocation, not to impede it, as you are suggesting.

    Sign the petition.

    Already 330 signatures.

    Petition Save The Delaware River System
    Has everyone signed?

    If you have signed already, post a link to the petition to your Facebook. Let's get this done.

    If you havent signed, it takes 30 seconds.

    I've posted about it to drakemag, and Lord knows they hate me there...

    Delaware River petition - please sign - Drake Magazine Online


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