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  1. #25
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    Re: Saving the Chuitna River

    Quote Originally Posted by golden beetle View Post
    its all semantics.

    I dont consider big oil and big coal to be capitalist.

    they innovate nothing.

    they create nothing.

    they destroy environments.

    Coal is not innovated.

    So if innovation is capitalism, then coal mining and wrecking rivers to do it aint capitalism.
    I get the "spirit" of your argument here but I dont know if you could say E&P companies like exxon and bp are not innovative and create nothing.

    The level of engineering talent and amount of money put into r&d probably makes the oil industry one of the most innovative in the world. Right up there with medicine, military, ect..

    All in all though it probably pales in comparision to all your contributions to humanity via internet forums though.


  2. #26
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    Re: Saving the Chuitna River

    Quote Originally Posted by emoussa View Post
    I get the "spirit" of your argument here but I dont know if you could say E&P companies like exxon and bp are not innovative and create nothing.

    The level of engineering talent and amount of money put into r&d probably makes the oil industry one of the most innovative in the world. Right up there with medicine, military, ect..

    All in all though it probably pales in comparision to all your contributions to humanity via internet forums though.
    I don't believe beetle thinks that resource like coal and oil should belong to companies to be sold. He would rather it be controlled by the government given to everyone. In other words he would prefer the model Venezuela has undertaken

    "Angling is extremely time consuming. That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane

  3. #27
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    Re: Saving the Chuitna River

    Quote Originally Posted by MACFLY View Post
    I don't believe beetle thinks that resource like coal and oil should belong to companies to be sold. He would rather it be controlled by the government given to everyone. In other words he would prefer the model Venezuela has undertaken
    Well said.

    Just to be clear, I have no respect at all for people who profit huge off shit they didnt create. Like oil and gas.

    Extract it, fine, but nobody should get rich off anything like that.

    Now creative people and businessmen who take risks, like Joe D and even Tobias, I totally respect their work and hope they make it.

    Joe D I respect.

    Tobias, I want to have a chance to make it.

    Lets bump this up so Tobias's river aint forgotten.


  4. #28
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    Re: Saving the Chuitna River

    Quote Originally Posted by golden beetle View Post
    Well said.

    Just to be clear, I have no respect at all for people who profit huge off shit they didnt create. Like oil and gas.

    Extract it, fine, but nobody should get rich off anything like that.

    Now creative people and businessmen who take risks, like Joe D and even Tobias, I totally respect their work and hope they make it.

    Joe D I respect.

    Tobias, I want to have a chance to make it.

    Lets bump this up so Tobias's river aint forgotten.
    Come on guy. A fishing guide taking risks but petroleum engineers don't? They may of not created the oil but they figured out how to extract it from miles underneath the ocean floor. People with creativity, intelligence and determination like that are the reason me and you could sit on our unimpressive asses and babble on the interrnet all day long. they deserve the money they make you fuckin bum.


  5. #29
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    Re: Saving the Chuitna River

    Quote Originally Posted by emoussa View Post
    Come on guy. A fishing guide taking risks but petroleum engineers don't? They may of not created the oil but they figured out how to extract it from miles underneath the ocean floor. People with creativity, intelligence and determination like that are the reason me and you could sit on our unimpressive asses and babble on the interrnet all day long. they deserve the money they make you fuckin bum.
    I am having trouble following the logic of this thread. Any of it. Maybe I'm just dumb.

    All I'll say is innovation is not necessarily good. I can innovate a new way to kidnap children or eat their puppies. That doesn't mean I deserve anyone's respect, or have the right to do either of these things.

    In the case of natural resource extraction, innovation is often part of the problem, as companies find new ways to pull things out of the ground that are not covered by existing regulations.


  6. #30
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    Re: Saving the Chuitna River

    Quote Originally Posted by mudbug201 View Post
    I am having trouble following the logic of this thread. Any of it. Maybe I'm just dumb.

    All I'll say is innovation is not necessarily good. I can innovate a new way to kidnap children or eat their puppies. That doesn't mean I deserve anyone's respect, or have the right to do either of these things.

    In the case of natural resource extraction, innovation is often part of the problem, as companies find new ways to pull things out of the ground that are not covered by existing regulations.
    Yea I agree you are fuckin dumb. Your first problem is that you think there is any logic to be found on this site.

    eating puppies doesn't get you to work and back every morning and then keep you and your kids warm every night.

    the way I see it, innovation is not the problem. Thats just human nature. It's regulation that's failing. Blame government. Blame the demand and our wasteful culture.


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  8. #31
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    Re: Saving the Chuitna River

    Quote Originally Posted by emoussa View Post
    determination like that are the reason me and you could sit on our unimpressive asses and babble on the interrnet all day long. .
    Speak for yourself .........It has been said that my ass is pretty impressive....

    "I'm not out on the river to win." -Kieth Rutherford

  9. #32
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    Re: Saving the Chuitna River

    Quote Originally Posted by emoussa View Post
    Yea I agree you are fuckin dumb. Your first problem is that you think there is any logic to be found on this site.

    eating puppies doesn't get you to work and back every morning and then keep you and your kids warm every night.

    the way I see it, innovation is not the problem. Thats just human nature. It's regulation that's failing. Blame government. Blame the demand and our wasteful culture.
    Well said.

    The me me society; get a new one because the new one is more pretty. I must have it even if the older one works fine.
    I have two 25 year old Orvis rods that I use. I have no need to get a new one. I also have far and fine I bought off of MAC, he gave me a price I could not refuse. I did not need it, the two older rods work fine and I have not had a situation that they could not perform to. It is all about wants and needs. It takes a certain amount of discipline to ascertain the difference between the two of them. A discipline that the consumption society frowns upon.

    "Hatchery fish have the same colors, but they always seem muted like bad reproductions of great art." Bill Barich

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  11. #33
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    Re: Saving the Chuitna River

    I lost this argument, clearly.

    Lets talk college hoops.


  12. #34
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    Re: Saving the Chuitna River

    Quote Originally Posted by golden beetle View Post
    I lost this argument, clearly.

    Lets talk college hoops.
    Giving up that quick are we, and to think you went to law school.

    "Hatchery fish have the same colors, but they always seem muted like bad reproductions of great art." Bill Barich

  13. #35
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    Re: Saving the Chuitna River

    Quote Originally Posted by tomfly View Post
    Giving up that quick are we, and to think you went to law school.
    Tom, I will try to explain my argument.

    First, I believe that oil and gas shouldn't be privately owned.

    Because, roughly speaking, these things are not created by men, they are resources that always have been there.

    Or have been there for a long, long time.

    I was surprised to hear emoussa argue that drilling technology, and innovations related to extraction, fuel our cars and heat our homes.

    He is incorrect about that.

    Perhaps he meant to say that oil and gas heat my home? And fuel my car?

    Because I don't need to thank anyone for the oil and gas that do those things.

    A man invented the car, before man invented a better fuel than oil and gas...

    Amazing how the cars keep getting better and better, but the fuel????

    Now, it is clear that oil is extracted. And the cost of extracting oil has decreased so much, that this oil out in the Dakotas and elsewhere, which has been known to exist for as long as I can remember, are now being extracted from the earth.

    This innovation is for extracting a natural resource.

    It is like a sharp tooth, in a shark, or a claw on an eagle or a bear.

    It has no moral significance, if it is necessary to make a kill, for the predator, or for man to extract oil he needs.

    I am not sure I'd give thanks to my claws, were I a tiger or a bear. Its hard to know what came first, the sharp teeth or the appetite for fresh meat....

    Now as to people, the oil is a natural resource, that we have needed for a relatively short period in our history.

    Oil as a resource has stopped political, social and economic progress wherever it is abundant.

    Like the Middle East.

    And Texas.

    The means of taking that resource is as much an innovation, I suppose, as a saber tooth in a tiger. It gets a job done.

    But once the beasts that the saber tooth had evolved to kill were extinct, the cat went extinct too.

    Our drilling technology will have no use, except incidental ones, after the resource either is used up or replaced. Perhaps we could use it to dig on asteroids, or on Mars? That would be cool, and innovative...

    But clearly, for our human mind to be designing teeth, to extract resources, like evolution created saber tooths...

    We can do better.

    How about if all the profits were applied to R & D for alternative energy, that did not cause climate change?


  14. #36
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    Re: Saving the Chuitna River

    Quote Originally Posted by golden beetle View Post
    Tom, I will try to explain my argument.

    First, I believe that oil and gas shouldn't be privately owned.

    Because, roughly speaking, these things are not created by men, they are resources that always have been there.

    Or have been there for a long, long time.

    I was surprised to hear emoussa argue that drilling technology, and innovations related to extraction, fuel our cars and heat our homes.

    He is incorrect about that.

    Perhaps he meant to say that oil and gas heat my home? And fuel my car?

    Because I don't need to thank anyone for the oil and gas that do those things.

    A man invented the car, before man invented a better fuel than oil and gas...

    Amazing how the cars keep getting better and better, but the fuel????

    Now, it is clear that oil is extracted. And the cost of extracting oil has decreased so much, that this oil out in the Dakotas and elsewhere, which has been known to exist for as long as I can remember, are now being extracted from the earth.

    This innovation is for extracting a natural resource.

    It is like a sharp tooth, in a shark, or a claw on an eagle or a bear.

    It has no moral significance, if it is necessary to make a kill, for the predator, or for man to extract oil he needs.

    I am not sure I'd give thanks to my claws, were I a tiger or a bear. Its hard to know what came first, the sharp teeth or the appetite for fresh meat....

    Now as to people, the oil is a natural resource, that we have needed for a relatively short period in our history.

    Oil as a resource has stopped political, social and economic progress wherever it is abundant.

    Like the Middle East.

    And Texas.

    The means of taking that resource is as much an innovation, I suppose, as a saber tooth in a tiger. It gets a job done.

    But once the beasts that the saber tooth had evolved to kill were extinct, the cat went extinct too.

    Our drilling technology will have no use, except incidental ones, after the resource either is used up or replaced. Perhaps we could use it to dig on asteroids, or on Mars? That would be cool, and innovative...

    But clearly, for our human mind to be designing teeth, to extract resources, like evolution created saber tooths...

    We can do better.

    How about if all the profits were applied to R & D for alternative energy, that did not cause climate change?
    How did you pay your college bills; you went somewhere pricey, right?

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

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