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  1. #25
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    Re: Mr. Cahill and the Sulphurs

    It was my mentor a man with a PhD in entomology that clarified it as a pudicum and I tend to agree with him. He has never be wrong so far. But truly with out dissection this is a speculation anyway.


    And very true the trout just see food



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    Re: Mr. Cahill and the Sulphurs

    Quote Originally Posted by Stenacron man View Post
    Almost every male mayfly in the Heptageniidae family has tails that exceed twice the length. No matter the genus. Stenacron males work like this; all male Stenacron that are between the body size of 8-10 mm have tails that are exactly 22 mm. For Maccaffertium they are more like 18 mm. The female has to carry the male in flight to copulate and the long wide spent male tails are part of the balance theme. I believe I have laid it out as best as possible to show that they are not the same bug. However if you truly believe they are the same you have that right to do so.
    I enjoy being right, but only when I am right.
    I brought this up over on "Trout Nut" because I was curious to know what this(these)bug(s) is(are).

    I've been seeing this bug for thirty years.
    It is at an intermittent stream, a torrent at spring thaw, inches deep in the spring and inches to "dry" the rest of the year(save for a wet week or a strong thunderstorm).
    I took the photos.
    I photographed the bug on the leaf; I collected the others(exactly the same spot as the "leaf bug") and photographed them in my kitchen.

    You believe that these are two different bugs.
    I'm telling you that the leaf bug had JUST become a spinner and the other clearer bugs with darker tails are hours older versions of the leaf bug.

    I can't find photos of any Pudicum that have tails OVER 3x the length of the body like the photo of my "leaf bug. The bugs in my kitchen ALSO have tails over 3x the length of their bodies.

    The unusual tail length alone supports my belief that the two are the same bug and given that I can't find any pudicum with 3x tails makes me think that I've got a case for these being the same bug...

    Look at the first two photos here:
    http://www.troutnut.com/topic/8055/M...wnQuill-Gordon

    You can see the transformation to a clearer bug and darker tails.

    The bugs in my kitchen photos are the end of the transformation,
    dark eyes, clearer bodies and dark tails.

    Come for a visit next spring, we'll document it and become famous in the bug world.

    Or I'll be wrong and buy you dinner...

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

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    Re: Mr. Cahill and the Sulphurs

    I love PA and would love to visit it again I lived near Lewisburg for years. I would love to take you up on that offer but I don't have a Canadian passport at this time. So if I cross the boarded I can't come back. The most important feature is like "YOU" said the eye spacing and that they are both spinners.

    So tell me why in the yellow carolina, the eyes are very wide spread, and the pudicum they are tight, but both are in the last 12 hours of their life span ????

    From a morphological position they are as full grown as they will ever be.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Inside of typically about 45 seconds the exoskeleton fuses after molt. So the eye spread is set at an instant basically. It takes APX from 30 second to 3.5 minutes depending on genus and species to evacuate the shuck completely. So because the head comes out first it is most often fused and set before the abdomen is cleared.

    Here is a photo under my microscope of a ( Stenacron comadidum ) breaking the the crown of the larva head to reveal the eyes first. The eyes and vertex are the first things out all the time no matter the genus or species.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





  4. #28
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    Re: Mr. Cahill and the Sulphurs

    Quote Originally Posted by Stenacron man View Post
    I love PA and would love to visit it again I lived near Lewisburg for years. I would love to take you up on that offer but I don't have a Canadian passport at this time. So if I cross the boarded I can't come back. The most important feature is like "YOU" said the eye spacing and that they are both spinners.

    So tell me why in the yellow carolina, the eyes are very wide spread, and the pudicum they are tight, but both are in the last 12 hours of their life span ????

    From a morphological position they are as full grown as they will ever be.

    I think that the angle of the shot has you thinking the eyes are closer together than they are...

    But let me keep it simple for me...
    in the trout nut thread...

    Is the bug in photo 1 the same or different than photo 2?
    Is photo 1 bug different or the same as photo 5?
    And I would assume you agree that 2 and 5 are the same...

    Do you have any photo or documented description of Maccaffertium pudicum as having tails over 3 times the body length?

    Thanks for the continued effort.

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

  5. #29
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    Re: Mr. Cahill and the Sulphurs

    1 & 2 are different

    1 & 5 are different

    yes 2 & 5 are the same


    Here is something else that might help out. First your Stenacron carolina are a little dark on average for that species and that is an environmental issue. Here are some photos that came from a Stenacron hunter friend in south Carolina and this is more toward the typical coloring for the species. In the pictures you took in the kitchen you can see a little more of the yellow tones. I am more than happy to take time to help you and others that are interested learn and understand.


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Stenacron carolina from SC;

    Click image for larger version. 

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    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



  6. #30
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    Re: Mr. Cahill and the Sulphurs

    Quote Originally Posted by Stenacron man View Post

    1 & 2 are different

    1 & 5 are different

    yes 2 & 5 are the same

    In the Troutnut thread"
    Just to clear things up for me...
    #1 is what you believe to be the Maccaffertium pudicum
    #2 and #5 are what you believe to be the Stenacron Carolina, right?
    And all the "kitchen" photos are Stenacrons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stenacron man View Post
    Here is something else that might help out. First your Stenacron carolina are a little dark on average for that species and that is an environmental issue. Here are some photos that came from a Stenacron hunter friend in south Carolina and this is more toward the typical coloring for the species. In the pictures you took in the kitchen you can see a little more of the yellow tones. I am more than happy to take time to help you and others that are interested learn and understand.


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Stenacron carolina from SC;
    Quote Originally Posted by Stenacron man View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I'm going out on a limb here, but THOSE tails are not over 3x the body length of that fly...
    Tail length is not important for an I.D.?

    But can you find any photo or description of a Maccaffertium pudicum with "3x" tails?

    Thanks again...

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

  7. #31
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    Re: Mr. Cahill and the Sulphurs

    You are correct


  8. #32
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    Re: Mr. Cahill and the Sulphurs

    Quote Originally Posted by Stenacron man View Post
    You are correct
    OK, but how about this part:

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Fanatic View Post

    I'm going out on a limb here, but THOSE tails are not over 3x the body length of that fly...
    Tail length is not important for an I.D.?

    But can you find any photo or description of a Maccaffertium pudicum with "3x" tails?

    Thanks again...


    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

  9. #33
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    Re: Mr. Cahill and the Sulphurs

    Dr Traver one of the leading authors of the biology of a mayfly 1935 does state tail size in her 1933 description on the female pudicum larva. No other descriptions state tail size for that species that I can find and currently have over 400 species manuals;

    pudicum for larva;

    Body size for female; 12-14 mm
    Tails for female larva; 18-20 mm

    Generally in most Heptageniidae the tails lengthen as they molt from subimago or dun, to the imago state being a spinner. Most have a average tail length between 22-24 mm for a male.

    I know from my own personally study of the vicarium complex that,
    (M vicarium), (M vicarium / rivulicolum), and (M vicarium / fuscum)

    and they all have tails that are 22 mm. In that study I reared 67 males and 173 females to the adult stage from larva for that complex. The female adults all had tails that were 20 mm on average. So because a "true vicarium" male has a body length of 16 mm and a tail length of 23 mm on average that makes the tails about 1 5/8 X the length of the body. From what I can find M pudicum male is 14 mm in body size with a likely tail length of 24 mm.

    So without going crazy with the math that would be just shy of 2 X the length of the body. Without measuring we all tend to over estimate the size of things whether its a bug or the lock-ness monster, its just part of being the species that we are. However I do agree that in the pudicum photo the tails look very long to long to be M vicarium.


    All I can say is this.

    I am currently writing a book on the genus Stenacron and have spent the last 3 years 12 -16 hrs a day, 7 days a week, with no days off studying this genus and for sure 1000% the other one is Stenacron Carolina!!! And the suspected pudicum is 100000000000% not a Stenacron. I have in the past 3 years looked at over 500+ Stenacron samples in all stages I know them like I know my family. Right now I have a fish tank running right beside me with about 70 Stenacron larva alive and looking at me while type right now. I have in solution well over 200 larva to dissect the winter. Trust me the dark one is not a Stenacron.




    Like I stated before with dissection this is all just speculation.










  10. #34
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    Re: Mr. Cahill and the Sulphurs

    Quote Originally Posted by Stenacron man View Post

    Without measuring we all tend to over estimate the size of things whether its a bug or the lock-ness monster, its just part of being the species that we are.
    Now hold your horses right there Canada boy...

    Get out you guyses favorite north of the border measuring device, the millimeter stick, and check out that first photo of the "pudicum". Of course the measurement will not be accurate, but measure the body and multiply by three. THAT is how long the "top" tail is (and I even "cut off" the end of it in the photo).

    On my screen, the body is 31mm and the tail(measured to the edge of the photo) is 97mm. So, at the LEAST(because it's cut off in the photo) it's 3.13X

    The second photo, the "Carolina"--- on my screen, the body (curve included) is 40mm and the tail is 135mm. This one is 3.375X

    Don't you think it odd that two different species of bugs found at the same time at the same place have ridiculously long tails? So long, that it's not described in any literature that an EXPERT(and I think you are, by the way) is familiar with?



    Quote Originally Posted by Stenacron man View Post


    Like I stated before with dissection this is all just speculation.

    Next May-June, is there any way to ship a few to you?

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

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  12. #35
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    Re: Mr. Cahill and the Sulphurs

    I would love samples especially the carolina.

    Ask Kurt = ENTOMAN on trout nut what he feels about the pudicum sample. The carolina we have that one figured out. He knows maccaffertium like a master, and what ever he says it is,, is good enough 4 me.

    Thank you about your expert comment




  13. #36
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    Re: Mr. Cahill and the Sulphurs

    Quote Originally Posted by Stenacron man View Post
    I would love samples especially the carolina.

    Ask Kurt = ENTOMAN on trout nut what he feels about the pudicum sample. The carolina we have that one figured out. He knows maccaffertium like a master, and what ever he says it is,, is good enough 4 me.

    Thank you about your expert comment

    I sent a message to Entoman.
    Thanks for your patience with me.
    So we've got half a year to work out the details, but what's the best way to preserve a sample for you and how do we get the border authorities to NOT blow a gasket when I ship it?

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

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