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  1. #49
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    Re: NY State Role in Reservoir Releases

    Quote Originally Posted by brachycentrus View Post
    John, as far as you pointing out who is starting shit and pointing to pages or posts, like I said before, I just dont like you and you evoke that response from me.
    But you complained about the thread going to shit, implying I was to blame, and THAT was the reason you stopped visiting the site in the past! It was YOUR response toward ME that turned the thread to shit in your eyes... You have to be able to see the silliness of it.
    I guess since you can't control your responses to me, it's good that I can, toward you... From my experience in the past, you certainly can't take it as easily as you dish it out.

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

  2. #50
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    Re: NY State Role in Reservoir Releases

    Quote Originally Posted by Trout Nazi View Post
    Big deal, you know 3 guys in Montana who are the exception to the rule. The name dropping does not impress me.

    Im a guide for myself, independent business. Maybe you'll see me on the Main in my motor canoe, I save the drifter for the branches. As far as knowing who you are, I could care less. Your another one of the negative know it alls who feels its their duty to lecture the rest of us idiots. It's all good until someone questions though (which I didn't even do).
    Well good to see you have your guide license, however, if you plan on guiding down low in your motorized canoe, make sure you have your Coast Guard 6 Pak license, even if you are only using an electric motor, NPS CUA and Pennsylvania guides license. And be prepared for annual coast guard inspections and all the other stuff they do in order to make you work until July before you make a paycheck.
    Everyone has their hands out.


  3. #51
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    Re: NY State Role in Reservoir Releases

    Quote Originally Posted by brachycentrus View Post
    Well good to see you have your guide license, however, if you plan on guiding down low in your motorized canoe, make sure you have your Coast Guard 6 Pak license, even if you are only using an electric motor, NPS CUA and Pennsylvania guides license. And be prepared for annual coast guard inspections and all the other stuff they do in order to make you work until July before you make a paycheck.
    Everyone has their hands out.
    Dont worry, I have my OUPV. And no standing and casting in my canoe.

    Roll up the windows Brian, you're letting the stank out.

  4. #52
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    flyI4 is offline Fishizzle, I use worms but I'm looking to upgrade!
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    Re: NY State Role in Reservoir Releases

    u know they say that most drowning victims are found with their zipper unzipped. Watch out for that one too....its not the cast. its the piss that will get in you in trouble


  5. #53
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    Re: NY State Role in Reservoir Releases

    So Brachy are you implying that I should be friendly with someone who calls them-self a Nazi ?

    Shit thats tough for someone who comes from a family full of Marines to like anything or anyone with the word Nazi in it. There no different than communist's, and terrorist scumbags.

    Jeff to many ass holes here (not to offend some of the good guys I know here)I enjoy fishing not this silly soap opera with a bunch of girly men who wear pink panties.

    I'll touch base soon.

    To my buddies out there see you on the river and keep it tight.


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  7. #54
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    Re: NY State Role in Reservoir Releases

    Flyfishing: the gentlemans sport

    "Angling is extremely time consuming. That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane

  8. #55
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    Re: NY State Role in Reservoir Releases

    Quote Originally Posted by brachycentrus View Post
    I think it's a freakin sin that if you dont know shit about the system that you even come up and fish. And a much bigger sin is to fish the system and not support friends of the Delaware River, the only group that is watching out for everyone's interest. Some great work has been done with plenty more on the horizon but it also takes memberships. I feel that if you fish up here on a regular basis and dont spend the measly $35.00 annual membership, then you are just an asshole.
    Jesus died for their sins, so this shouldn't be an issue.

    Jeff, we have to take into consideration that not everyone cares (unfortunately). They come up, fish once or twice for the photo op and that's the end of their season and they're happy with that (I'm sure you have your fair share of those in your boat).

    Then of course there are the people you describe who come up and just use the system and do know about the FUDR. But, it's possible they know of the old FUDR when it was FUDR vs. DRF. Remember when the arguments on this site used to get nuts and the name calling was out of hand? The online fighting ensued and of course me being the site owner gets caught in the middle because I'm letting those cretins speak their minds!?! THIS is why the site originally became a cesspool and one of the reasons people disassociated with both groups (FUDR / DRF) as well as this site... They couldn't take the bickering and of course they hated the fact that I wouldn't censor the other side. Then years later came other people who brought the site down but right now, I think we're actually doing pretty good. The site has become informative again. Now look at each thread on the front page and pick out the 1 thread that might deter people from coming on this site or joining the FUDR. Hint... It's not the golden beetle thread!

    Look... When I'm purchasing a new piece of audio equipment, I don't look for the good reviews about that piece of equipment, I look at the bad ones. Who cares about the good reviews, we already have an idea that we want the product and why...? I wanna read the bad reviews to see what issues I might run into with a product. I want to see where the breakage points are. I want to know what the customer support didn't do to help solve the issue.
    Don't you think having a guy like Future Fanatic question everything is a smart thing to do? Now sure we can go and post something and have everyone say, "Really, let's jump on the bandwagon, Jeff is a reliable source of information so it must be right". (and I think you are a reliable source of information). We (You and I) are both guilty of posting stuff on Facebook that we read somewhere and just ran with it because it looked like it was reliable. I screwed up yesterday with something like that but I was happy when I was corrected because I'll make sure I double check the source next time.

    I just think that when you build a bridge, you have to find all the weak points in the bridge before you let the cars pass safely. That's where a guy like future fanatic comes in. We should question everything. Debate is good.

    I'm happy to see that the FUDR has become a really great group with great people and an asset to not only the river but the community that surrounds the river. It's nice to see that the FUDR is being promoted by ALL of the fly shops in the area and yes, even Jim Serio is on board. The old way of business - having two groups pulling people and twisting people wasn't a good thing for anybody, it only divided people and pulled people away from what was important.

    I think one of the ways to get people who may question the FUDR's involvement with the flow plan is to promote some of the other really great things the FUDR does:

    Accomplishments | FUDR
    ________________________
    In addition to our stream restoration project on Sands Creek, the funds are used to support the Hancock Fire Department, East Branch Fire Department, Equinunk Watershed Association, and the Hancock Community Education Foundation.


    ‘Friends Park’ in Deposit provides a new access point to the river for trout fishermen, birdwatchers and others. A viewing access of the river will be completed in 2014.

    Continue work on a comprehensive stream restoration project of Sands and Cadosia creeks in Delaware County, N.Y., partnering with the Town of Hancock, Delaware County Department of Public Works, Code Blue, National Fish and Wildlife Foundation, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, The Keith Campbell Foundation, Orvis, Patagonia, & Theodore Gordon Flyfishers.
    ________________________

    Not everyone knows about the FUDR. The FUDR has a booth at the Somerset show but how else are they really marketing? Other than that, how do people know about it? I offered to have an FUDR banner on this site but haven't heard back yet. This was months ago.

    Pictures taken before/after/during fly fishing:
    http://dcabarle.smugmug.com/Sports/F...79119552_XXeHe

  9. #56
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    Re: NY State Role in Reservoir Releases

    Quote Originally Posted by dcabarle View Post
    Jesus died for their sins, so this shouldn't be an issue.

    Jeff, we have to take into consideration that not everyone cares (unfortunately). They come up, fish once or twice for the photo op and that's the end of their season and they're happy with that (I'm sure you have your fair share of those in your boat).

    Then of course there are the people you describe who come up and just use the system and do know about the FUDR. But, it's possible they know of the old FUDR when it was FUDR vs. DRF. Remember when the arguments on this site used to get nuts and the name calling was out of hand? The online fighting ensued and of course me being the site owner gets caught in the middle because I'm letting those cretins speak their minds!?! THIS is why the site originally became a cesspool and one of the reasons people disassociated with both groups (FUDR / DRF) as well as this site... They couldn't take the bickering and of course they hated the fact that I wouldn't censor the other side. Then years later came other people who brought the site down but right now, I think we're actually doing pretty good. The site has become informative again. Now look at each thread on the front page and pick out the 1 thread that might deter people from coming on this site or joining the FUDR. Hint... It's not the golden beetle thread!

    Look... When I'm purchasing a new piece of audio equipment, I don't look for the good reviews about that piece of equipment, I look at the bad ones. Who cares about the good reviews, we already have an idea that we want the product and why...? I wanna read the bad reviews to see what issues I might run into with a product. I want to see where the breakage points are. I want to know what the customer support didn't do to help solve the issue.
    Don't you think having a guy like Future Fanatic question everything is a smart thing to do? Now sure we can go and post something and have everyone say, "Really, let's jump on the bandwagon, Jeff is a reliable source of information so it must be right". (and I think you are a reliable source of information). We (You and I) are both guilty of posting stuff on Facebook that we read somewhere and just ran with it because it looked like it was reliable. I screwed up yesterday with something like that but I was happy when I was corrected because I'll make sure I double check the source next time.

    I just think that when you build a bridge, you have to find all the weak points in the bridge before you let the cars pass safely. That's where a guy like future fanatic comes in. We should question everything. Debate is good.

    I'm happy to see that the FUDR has become a really great group with great people and an asset to not only the river but the community that surrounds the river. It's nice to see that the FUDR is being promoted by ALL of the fly shops in the area and yes, even Jim Serio is on board. The old way of business - having two groups pulling people and twisting people wasn't a good thing for anybody, it only divided people and pulled people away from what was important.

    I think one of the ways to get people who may question the FUDR's involvement with the flow plan is to promote some of the other really great things the FUDR does:

    Accomplishments | FUDR
    ________________________
    In addition to our stream restoration project on Sands Creek, the funds are used to support the Hancock Fire Department, East Branch Fire Department, Equinunk Watershed Association, and the Hancock Community Education Foundation.


    ‘Friends Park’ in Deposit provides a new access point to the river for trout fishermen, birdwatchers and others. A viewing access of the river will be completed in 2014.

    Continue work on a comprehensive stream restoration project of Sands and Cadosia creeks in Delaware County, N.Y., partnering with the Town of Hancock, Delaware County Department of Public Works, Code Blue, National Fish and Wildlife Foundation, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, The Keith Campbell Foundation, Orvis, Patagonia, & Theodore Gordon Flyfishers.
    ________________________

    Not everyone knows about the FUDR. The FUDR has a booth at the Somerset show but how else are they really marketing? Other than that, how do people know about it? I offered to have an FUDR banner on this site but haven't heard back yet. This was months ago.
    Dennis, Very well said and I agree. A lot of friendships were torn over the old divisions and groups, each who fought tooth and nail that their plan was the right one. But now, more than ever, as you pointed out, we speak as a unified voice with a lot of support, scientific, political, damn we even have the towns of Hancock and Deposit helping with some of the restoration projects by donating machines and manpower. We have National Orgs, political lobbyists and the states pretty much are speaking with one voice. There are some real good things on the horizon, hopefully, but our org is really no different from the model, The Henry's Fork Foundation, except we dont have the membership they do. Why, I dont know. We certainly have more people that can fish up here without planning a week long vacation and is within a 2- 2 1/2 hr. drive from millions.
    I thought that you did in fact have the banner up on your site. Well it should be, especially since you are the official One Bug Photographer
    Thanks.


  10. #57
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    Re: NY State Role in Reservoir Releases

    Bravo Bravo Jeff and Dennis

    Please click on the Pic

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  11. #58
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    Re: NY State Role in Reservoir Releases

    Just adding my two cents. Eastbranch has no zoning. The dike was built by the USACE for ice control not flooding. The dike is two feet lower then what would be required for flood protection and insurance. New structures needs to be two feet above the dike, so stilted building would be required to meet FEMA flood insurance requirements.

    As far as releases, until they stop counting the releases from PPL Lake Wallenpaupack you're not going to get the releases you want. NYC is taking more more water out of the Delaware system because of the increased turbidity in the Catskill system and if you think they're going to use the Croton system to make up for it I believe you're kidding yourselves, its not going to happen.

    As far as anchor ice it not only increases the didymo by not having it but it also leaves gravels bars in the river since the anchor ice carries the gravel down river.

    I don't see much change in the FFMP until they stop counting Wallenpaupack towards the 1750 at Montague.

    Just my opinion but having lived on the river for most of my life I have seen the changes and most of the changes have been detrimental to the rivers ecology and advantageous to NYC. As the Deputy Director of the NYCDEP recently state at a UDC meeting, "its our water anything left over is everyone else's". That pretty much sums up NYCDEP's opinion about the fisheries and down stream ecology, don't you think?

    A good well with a trouble-free delivery system is more comfort than a healthy bank account... water will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no water.

  12. #59
    TR's Avatar
    TR is offline "You can observe a lot just by watching." Y. Berra
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    Re: NY State Role in Reservoir Releases

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilgour Farms View Post
    Just adding my two cents...

    As the Deputy Director of the NYCDEP recently state at a UDC meeting, "its our water anything left over is everyone else's". That pretty much sums up NYCDEP's opinion about the fisheries and down stream ecology, don't you think?
    ---------

    Hello.

    Scroll on timebar on youtube video to the 22 minute mark for Tom Murphy of NYC DEP talk about the Upper Delaware River.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYVUNqzk754



  13. #60
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    Re: NY State Role in Reservoir Releases

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilgour Farms View Post
    Just adding my two cents. Eastbranch has no zoning. The dike was built by the USACE for ice control not flooding. The dike is two feet lower then what would be required for flood protection and insurance. New structures needs to be two feet above the dike, so stilted building would be required to meet FEMA flood insurance requirements.

    As far as releases, until they stop counting the releases from PPL Lake Wallenpaupack you're not going to get the releases you want. NYC is taking more more water out of the Delaware system because of the increased turbidity in the Catskill system and if you think they're going to use the Croton system to make up for it I believe you're kidding yourselves, its not going to happen.

    As far as anchor ice it not only increases the didymo by not having it but it also leaves gravels bars in the river since the anchor ice carries the gravel down river.

    I don't see much change in the FFMP until they stop counting Wallenpaupack towards the 1750 at Montague.

    Just my opinion but having lived on the river for most of my life I have seen the changes and most of the changes have been detrimental to the rivers ecology and advantageous to NYC. As the Deputy Director of the NYCDEP recently state at a UDC meeting, "its our water anything left over is everyone else's". That pretty much sums up NYCDEP's opinion about the fisheries and down stream ecology, don't you think?

    You nailed it Fred. I think in Revision 7, language was omitted that required NYC to release the same amount out of the reservoirs to compensate for whatever Wallenpaupak dumped in. Then the whitewater groups became parties to the FERC relicensing when they opened RIO back up, requiring whitewater recreational releases and they got it. It used to be, at minimum, you could count on weekend releases out of the reservoirs, but now both Rio and Wallenpaupak stagger their releases every other weekend. One weekend its, Rio, the next is Wallenpaupak so the net effect is no releases out of either reservoir to protect the habitat.

    You also were correct with the quote. NYC doesnt give a damn about the fishery. Two years in a row, the browns came up the WB to spawn up in Stilesville, there were releases that put the river somewhere between 750-1000. The browns came up, dug their redds, layed their eggs and NYC dropped the flow down to 225 or so, exposing the redds. This kind of stuff is commonplace, but not at the rate as before because of the number of eyes on what NY is doing and THAT is where FUDR comes in handy. They actually, although it's hard to believe, have relationships down in New York so that they can call directly or have a member of the Decree party make the call and request a release. Sometimes it works and sometimes NYC just doesnt give a damn.

    Hopefully, the ongoing economic impact statement will lend some weight to what we are trying to do. The Croton water is important and could be used if filtered. I would like to think that fisherman who use the resourse would gladly pay for a trout stamp or something similiar to help defray the costs of a filtration plant. I dont have the answers and easily get frustrated with the politics and personalities, but I've been fighting this since before there was even a DRF. Back then it was known as the Delaware Coalition and was really just a bunch of guides and shops with no real organization. What we have today is an immense improvement and I would love to see it hit the same popularity of the Henry's Fork Foundation. I think it could be argued that we have a more robust fishery and insect pops that have never reached their potential.

    And like many others, I would like to see the return of the anchor ice. I know Jim doesnt agree with the premise, but the siltation, algae, dydmo, changing insect populations and the end of the massive alewive dumps when the reservoir thawed, have all occurred after the winter voids were incorporated.

    And one more thing that really galls me and probably most arent even aware of is that when they close the river to protect spawning trout, the tribs are still open with a 5 fish daily limit and you can bet the farm that the locals are fully aware of it.
    McBride, the Regional Biologist retired last year and I have have had a couple conversations with the new guy. He seems ok and seems to recognize the uniquness of what we have here. Hopefully he appreciates it and takes me up on my offer to float him down the river anytime.


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