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Thread: Esopus Creek

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  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to golden beetle For This Useful Post:

    Barleywine (02-08-2014), lightenup (02-09-2014)

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    Re: Esopus Creek

    No surprise, browns are the top predator of the trout world. Once they become established as wild fish, it's just a matter of time before the native trout or other wild trout introduced previously like the Esopus rainbows get overtaken in some way. Same thing is happening to our brookies here in NJ in so many streams.

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    Re: Esopus Creek

    Thanks for posting that interesting article GB.

    The Esopus was the first of the Catskill rivers that caught my attention years ago. My wife and I would often camp at Kenneth Wilson campgrounds in Woodstock, and I'd drive to the river and fish every run and pool that I could get access to. Really loved that water, and it helped that the season stretched all the way to November 30th (and it still does) when it was closing in October on most Catskill waters. I do remember catching more rainbows than browns in the early 90's, and most of the browns that I did catch were of the stocked variety.

    Floods, exposed clay banks, and dirty water pouring out of the portal put me off that river. I last fished it in 2007, and all of the trout that I caught in my last visit were rainbows. I'm planning on going back this season just to see for myself how the river is doing. Since browns and rainbows spawn in different seasons, each YOY class can be more adversely affected depending on the timing of a flood event, so I'm not surprised that samples show a shift from one trout to the other. What concerns me more from that article is the drastic decline in the total number of trout in the sample.

    I really hope this river of the Charmed Circle can rebound.

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    Re: Esopus Creek

    Interesting article Gb, good read right there.

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    Re: Esopus Creek

    I wonder if they were electro-fishing above or below the portal. The way I understand it, the browns park in the tribs between Phoenicia and Boiceville when they spawn. I've never caught a decent sized wild brown in the river, but all the wild ones I've gotten have been in the pocket water between the big boulders in this section.

    I catch a lot of small rainbows in faster, shallower water, but this is usually further upstream. I've never gotten anything but bows above the portal. This is why I'm curious where they did their electro-fishing.

    I love this river, it's soooo pretty. I'll admit to being one of the assholes who tubes down it in large groups. Sorry for partying. Atleast we don't litter....

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    Re: Esopus Creek

    Quote Originally Posted by moosekid View Post
    I wonder if they were electro-fishing above or below the portal. The way I understand it, the browns park in the tribs between Phoenicia and Boiceville when they spawn. I've never caught a decent sized wild brown in the river, but all the wild ones I've gotten have been in the pocket water between the big boulders in this section.

    I catch a lot of small rainbows in faster, shallower water, but this is usually further upstream. I've never gotten anything but bows above the portal. This is why I'm curious where they did their electro-fishing.

    I love this river, it's soooo pretty. I'll admit to being one of the assholes who tubes down it in large groups. Sorry for partying. Atleast we don't litter....
    I think Barleywine proposes an interesting hypothesis, that the river is sensitive to flooding and that these events are unpredictable and may disrupt spawning. Since rainbows and browns spawn in different seasons, perhaps flooding can substantially reduce the numbers of rainbows and browns that hatch and survive to be counted some day in an electro fishing survey.

    I like that idea, but let's assume that an entire years worth of brown trout eggs are wiped out by an catastrophic fall flood.

    If trout live for 5 years or so, I would estimate the immediate impact on population to be 20 percent (based on simple math, one years worth of population loss in a 5 year life cycle). But that wouldnt explain the radical shift in numbers that you see in the article.

    Of course, a flood could cause changes to the habitat.

    Even if the surveys were conducted in the same place, the habitat may be favorable to rainbows one year in the survey location and browns the next.

    Or is Rusty right in his reply, that browns will eventually take over an ecosystem conducive to trout, such as the Esopus, in most cases where they compete with brookies and rainbows?


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    Re: Esopus Creek

    I believe its the flooding and constant turbidity that has caused the change. The browns have been in the river for decades and until the floods in recent years, the rainbows always outnumbered the browns significantly. I also think the because browns feed by sight and sound, and rainbows feed primarily by sight, the browns survive better in the turbid water.


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    Re: Esopus Creek

    Actually, I'd like an explanation as to what is going on up in Schoharie Reservoir churning up all of the mud. and last time I fished up there was pre-Irene and I caught all browns.

    Roll up the windows Brian, you're letting the stank out.

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    Re: Esopus Creek

    Quote Originally Posted by Trout Nazi View Post
    Actually, I'd like an explanation as to what is going on up in Schoharie Reservoir churning up all of the mud. and last time I fished up there was pre-Irene and I caught all browns.
    Can you start a new thread?

    This isn't about why the water is muddy.

    So go back to your kindergarten class and leave my thread alone.


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    Re: Esopus Creek

    Quote Originally Posted by golden beetle View Post
    Can you start a new thread?

    This isn't about why the water is muddy.

    So go back to your kindergarten class and leave my thread alone.
    Your question was answered by Grobert, so now I'm hijacking this thread. And stop kissing his ass, your not getting any free flies out of him. Also, be happy that I'm keeping this somewhat on topic, I can easily antagonize CMM into this thread and completely derail things. Bizatch.

    Roll up the windows Brian, you're letting the stank out.

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    Re: Esopus Creek

    I fish the esopus quite a bit and have noticed the change. Last year I started mentioning it to guys stream side and not many noticed a difference. I was starting to think that the storms had changed the river in and around my favorite spots, but not the entire river.

    The storms, the sediment and didymo have all changed the river bottom significantly in the last two or three years.


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    Re: Esopus Creek

    Quote Originally Posted by Iso View Post
    I fish the esopus quite a bit and have noticed the change. Last year I started mentioning it to guys stream side and not many noticed a difference. I was starting to think that the storms had changed the river in and around my favorite spots, but not the entire river.

    The storms, the sediment and didymo have all changed the river bottom significantly in the last two or three years.
    it might have to do with trib access/ and or spawning conditions on those tribs. Rainbow trout have to spawn in tributaries from what I've been told, while browns can spawn in river- a big advantage since many tribs in the catskills don't have overly easy accessible entry points to the main river. One advantage the bows do have is that spring typically has high water when they spawn in late february through early april, whereas browns have a crapshoot during their spawning season in the fall where water can be either low or high. This would suggest that the conditions of the tribs are whats impacting numbers.


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