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  1. #145
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    Re: Salmon River Report 2012

    by the way simms, how does toby taste?
    Quote Originally Posted by Simms View Post
    he is kidding




  2. #146
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    Re: Salmon River Report 2012

    Pretty good...Musta had some buffalo wings last night.. A little "vinegar-ry" if ya know what I mean...

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  3. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrashers.wheat View Post
    Toby,

    My two favorite tributaries to Lake Ontario are not stocked. The state has documented natural reproduction in both of these streams.

    Also, why the need to call me out? What in the world would make you any sort of authority on anything related to the biological processes of any water dwelling species?

    You called me out on my last post speaking about the Skeena system. Have you ever been there? Have you ever fished for steelhead in any of the Pacific drainages? Do you have any knowledge of the process of anadramous fish from the Pacific? Do you have any experience in anadramous research?

    Did you know that steelhead are stocked out west, too? Does that make them less than wild? I'd love to hear you fish for rainbow trout exceeding 20", as many western states define their steelhead, and say that they were not wild fish. I just don't understand your berating posts, bro.
    So what makes you an expert? Just because a tributary is not stocked doesn't mean stocked fish don't enter the system. The only place I know of with a high percentage of natural reproduction is Cattaragus Creek and that is a tributary of Lake Erie.

    I'm not saying there aren't wild steelhead in NY. But the conditions for successful natural reproduction do not exist in the majority if tributaries in Lake Ontario on the New York side. I'd be interested to know which tribs you are talking about. In fact since it is documented by he state I would like to read the study. Especially since almost all of the tribs I know of get way too warm in the summer for any smolts and yearlings to survive. If natural reproduction was so prolific why would the state stock such high numbers? There is not enough forage base in Lake Ontario for stocked fish and wild fish to compete.

    Unless you are fishing in Canada( who's biologists claim 40% of their returning steelhead are from natural reproduction
    http://www.ontariooutofdoors.com/fis.../?ID=36&a=read ) then I would bet the majority of your fish are stocked fish that ran up what ever trib they came across.

    I do know they stock fish on the west coast. Hatchery steelhead are killing off the wild steelhead out there. Throwing more money and weaker hatchery fish at a dwindling wild steelhead population isn't the answer. Closing the fishery and letting Mother Nature run her course is.

    Take a look at the steelhead stocking numbers in these counties alone. Don't be surprised if you see your creek on there.

    http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/23245.html

    http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/23240.html

    http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/23239.html

    http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/23248.html

    http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/23252.html


    http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/23219.html

    http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/23271.html

    Now tell me if you still think all of those fish you are catching are wild.

    If biologists in New York thought steelhead natural reproduction was high they would cut stocking numbers. Have you ever been to a state of the lake meeting?

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  4. #148
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    Also what skeena post are you talking about?

    Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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    http://www.savebristolbay.org/

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  5. #149
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    Re: Salmon River Report 2012

    I do not critique each post you enter on this site, never claimed to be an expert / never will. I do understand that although a trib is not stocked it does not mean that stocked fish do not enter. But, you must apply this same train of thought to our Pacific trib's, also. Therefore, there are no wild steelhead out west!? That is an illogical, misinformed train of thought. Fantastic that you not only know of the Catt but would selfishly publicize your knowledge of a sensitive fishery on the internet.

    Well the almighty tobias concedes that there are wild steelhead in NY! Just not in the streams I fish. Because we've fished together and have shared our favorite spots, right? Although I never claimed the natural reproduction to be prolific, I'll address your misguided question of why the state would continue to stock even IF there were prolific natural reproduction. MONEY. A significant portion of the economy of Oswego County. The ethics of fishing for salmonids coming from Lake O would never allow fish to do their thing, either. Regardless of the forage present within Lake O, the unethical lifting of as many steelhead as possible sitting on a redd in xxxxxx Brook would never allow them to be successful. I have heard of baitfish populations decreasing in Lake O...which would ultimately hurt both stocked and wild fish. Typically, non-native fish out-compete native fish. The only example I can think of that contradicts this scenario is the bull trout.

    I, too, agree that the majority of fish I catch are not wild. But there must be some distinction between a fish released in to a river system as a juvenile, as they are in the SR, in comparison to fish released as an adult from a hatchery.

    You do know they stock steelies out west? Yet your idea that because they stock on the east, in an area featuring limited natural reproduction, these fish are not wild. But, although they stock out west, in an area now featuring limited natural reproduction, these fish are wild? I do not get it. I have spoken with our Nation's foremost anadramous researcher's about this one and their take on it would surprise even the most scrupulous individual, such as yourself.

    Closing the fishery is not the answer, and you're a damn fool if you believe that. Like Pulaski, there are towns out west that rely on salmonid fishermen to boost local businesses. Aside from these folks losing a lot of business, the fishery in itself would most likely not repair itself. A separate, specific measure is numero uno when talking about reviving the steelhead returns out west.

    The two streams I mentioned earlier do not receive stockings. They're not on the lists you've wasted your time presenting. I'm sure one of your chronie's read through them, though. Which I bet they're very grateful for - wild charts speaking of stocked fish.

    Again, I never thought, nor claimed, that all of the fish I catch are wild. Actually, I just said that I'm grateful for wild steelhead. You had to chime in with your intellect and state that fish are stocked.

    Again, I'd be surprised if the State were to cut stocking numbers based on research indicating high levels of natural reproduction. I think the area is no way a legitimate candidate to push for going completely wild. Again, aside from hurting the local businesses tailored to these sportsmen, the lack of ethics involved in fishing in this area would destroy any attempt at reducing stocking counts.

    Quote Originally Posted by CTobias View Post
    So what makes you an expert? Just because a tributary is not stocked doesn't mean stocked fish don't enter the system. The only place I know of with a high percentage of natural reproduction is Cattaragus Creek and that is a tributary of Lake Erie.

    I'm not saying there aren't wild steelhead in NY. But the conditions for successful natural reproduction do not exist in the majority if tributaries in Lake Ontario on the New York side. I'd be interested to know which tribs you are talking about. In fact since it is documented by he state I would like to read the study. Especially since almost all of the tribs I know of get way too warm in the summer for any smolts and yearlings to survive. If natural reproduction was so prolific why would the state stock such high numbers? There is not enough forage base in Lake Ontario for stocked fish and wild fish to compete.

    Unless you are fishing in Canada( who's biologists claim 40% of their returning steelhead are from natural reproduction
    Ontario's Steelhead - Ontario OUT OF DOORS Magazine » Fishing » Trout ) then I would bet the majority of your fish are stocked fish that ran up what ever trib they came across.

    I do know they stock fish on the west coast. Hatchery steelhead are killing off the wild steelhead out there. Throwing more money and weaker hatchery fish at a dwindling wild steelhead population isn't the answer. Closing the fishery and letting Mother Nature run her course is.

    Take a look at the steelhead stocking numbers in these counties alone. Don't be surprised if you see your creek on there.

    2011 Fish Stocking in Niagara County - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation

    2011 Fish Stocking in Orleans County - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation

    2011 Fish Stocking in Oswego County - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation

    2011 Fish Stocking in Monroe County - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation

    2011 Fish Stocking in Jefferson County - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation


    2011 Fish Stocking in Wayne County - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation

    2011 Fish Stocking in Cayuga County - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation

    Now tell me if you still think all of those fish you are catching are wild.

    If biologists in New York thought steelhead natural reproduction was high they would cut stocking numbers. Have you ever been to a state of the lake meeting?



  6. #150
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    Re: Salmon River Report 2012

    Plenty of places for that down in the theater district, regardless of water flow...

    Quote Originally Posted by LyNcH View Post
    I would be happy with even a bump to 500cfs. I wanna swing this weekend!


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  7. #151
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    LyNcH is offline Dries, wets, nymphs and streamers...it's all good!
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    Re: Salmon River Report 2012

    Take the water temperatures in those Pacific tribs you are talking about, they are not topping out in the mid-70's even in the heat of summer nor do they slow to a trickle. I fished the Deschutes in late July and made a point to stay in the 55 degree water just to stay cool. There is no comparison between the west coast fisheries and the great lake tributaries.

    Keep stocking NYS, cut back on the Pacific salmon, and bring on more steelhead, and some water as well!. The best fishing is yet to come this year!

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  8. #152
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    Re: Salmon River Report 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Simms View Post
    Plenty of places for that down in the theater district, regardless of water flow...
    When are we going to float, it's going to start to slush and then ice over soon!

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    Re: Salmon River Report 2012

    Pops is headed up tomorrow!

    I am going to try for next weekend! Are you free?

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  10. #154
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    Re: Salmon River Report 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Simms View Post
    Pops is headed up tomorrow!

    I am going to try for next weekend! Are you free?
    Nope. On call for work....

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  11. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrashers.wheat View Post
    But, you must apply this same train of thought to our Pacific trib's, also. Therefore, there are no wild steelhead out west!? That is an illogical, misinformed train of thought. Fantastic that you not only know of the Catt but would selfishly publicize your knowledge of a sensitive fishery on the internet.

    You do know they stock steelies out west? Yet your idea that because they stock on the east, in an area featuring limited natural reproduction, these fish are not wild. But, although they stock out west, in an area now featuring limited natural reproduction, these fish are wild? I do not get it. I have spoken with our Nation's foremost anadramous researcher's about this one and their take on it would surprise even the most scrupulous individual, such as yourself.

    Closing the fishery is not the answer, and you're a damn fool if you believe that. Like Pulaski, there are towns out west that rely on salmonid fishermen to boost local businesses. Aside from these folks losing a lot of business, the fishery in itself would most likely not repair itself. A separate, specific measure is numero uno when talking about reviving the steelhead returns out west.
    I mentioned the Catt. Oh no! It's one if the most publicized bodies of water.

    You have yet to provide one piece of documentation or study on your claims about wild steelhead in NY.

    As for hatchery fish out west, it has been PROVEN that hatchery fish negatively impact wild steelhead populations.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0610091224.htm

    "hatchery salmonids – many of which do survive to reproduce in the wild– could be gradually reducing the fitness of the wild populations with which they interbreed. Those hatchery fish provide one more hurdle to overcome in the goal of sustaining wild runs, along with problems caused by dams, loss or degradation of habitat, pollution, overfishing and other causes."

    "Captive breeding for reintroduction or supplementation can have a serious, long-term downside in some taxa, and so should not be considered as a panacea for the recovery of all endangered populations."

    Typical lib argument. All mouth and no facts.

    Also to compare the west coast fishery to a Great Lakes fishery is apples to oranges. You talk about snagging fish off reds and unethical fishing, but the SR alone has a 92% release rate if steelhead. Steelhead in NY are out and take. This is why you don't see the monster fish from many years ago. There are more fish in the lake competing for a smaller amount if food. This is why the majority of steelhead are small.

    Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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  12. #156
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    Re: Salmon River Report 2012

    I can attest to the lack of forage fish in the lake. In the 80's and early 90's we would mark huge schools of bait on the sonar graphs. I saved some of the chart paper from the sonar and the clouds of bait were 40 feet wide and 80 feet tall, you would mark them all day. as time went on the baitfish dwindled you woild only mark occasional small pods of alewives. The fishing suffered, yes there are the lampreys and zebra mussels but introducing hundreds of thousands of identical sized fish into the system all at once wreaks havok on the food chain.

    "Give a man a fish and he will ask for tartar sauce and french fries"

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