Delaware River Club
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  1. #97
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    Fly Tier,

    Does it matter if the temperatures are good if there is no water in the river?

    We obviously need both good flows and good temperatures.

    78 cfs is catastrophic to the bugs and fish on the West Branch. I puddle 2 inches in diameter had over 200 cooked nymphs in it. And there were thousands of 2 inch puddles at 78 cfs.


  2. #98
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    Jonboy,
    "up to a maximum amount WHICH EQUALS the amount of water which would otherwise be spilling from such reservoir. I didn't know how to bold, sorry for the caps.

    Big Spinner...
    My point is, once again for the 10th time, 600CFS release is not asking for anything more than what has been historically released. Its actually less than the historic average. If it was managed properly and they turned the yo yo releases into consistant releases, we would not be having this discussion.
    We definetely need good flows and good temperatures. The river would never been at 78 CFS if the releases were consistant.

    Water can still reach 78 degrees at a "FLOW" of 250cfs It was almost 70 last week when the "flow" and the small release ( again, pointing out the small release was a violation of 671.3) was 700. Imagine that temp if the flow was 250.

    --FT
    Nothing grows faster than a fish between the time the fish takes your fly...and the time he gets away.

  3. #99
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    Fly tier,

    600 average is not the same as a minimum 600 release.

    Do you agree that it will take more water to release a 600 minimum and keep the Montague target as it is today?

    If you do and modeling shows that it will take about 20 billion gallons more water on average every year, then where does this water come from?

    If you just draw down the reservoirs, then the down basin states and NYC scream.

    If you alter the Montague Target, then down basin states scream.

    Drought definition must be changed or the basin enters drought every year. The fish and bugs suffer.

    Or, add storage to the reservoirs. Everyone is happy.

    NYC
    DRBC
    Fish
    Fishermen
    DRF
    PA
    NY
    DE
    NJ
    Bugs
    Rivermaster
    FUDR?


  4. #100
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    Okay, here's something that I don't recall being discussed.

    You have a bunch of fishers, fly and others who want to enjoy a recreational sport, plus the economy of local communities, versus the perceived and generally realistic concerns and needs of major metropolitan areas. So that means (and I really have little basis for the following numbers): 20k fishers, 125k local populations and $25m economy versus a combined 12m people with their needs, major industries with their needs, and an economy that is in the $billions.

    Is it any wonder that the fishers are considered less important? Sure it would be great if all involved could be satisfied but perception is reality and it appears that the perception of those 'down river' or river assisted are concerned about their overall well-being and not the plight of fishermen. All of everyones talk about 'releases'; release levels, average, minimums or otherwise; temperatures; killing fish and bugs; wading versus drifting; etc. is really little, if any, concern to the metropolitan population.

    Allan

  5. #101
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    Exactly why this has to be a process where all parties agree to solutions or it will never get done.


  6. #102
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    Originally posted by Big_Spinner
    Fly tier,

    600 average is not the same as a minimum 600 release.


    Obviously a 600 Constant is not an average, but the reason it has top be avergae is because the DEP holds it back, holds it back, then flushes the sytem. Refer to YoYo Releases.

    Do you agree that it will take more water to release a 600 minimum and keep the Montague target as it is today?
    You are on record saying there is enough water in the system to do this, you are on record saying that 500 - 600CFS will be ultimately be where these studies will end up, you are on record saying that you want the same as FUDR as far as releases.



    If you do and modeling shows that it will take about 20 billion gallons more water on average every year, then where does this water come from?
    You should answer that, you are on record endorsing all this
    If you just draw down the reservoirs, then the down basin states and NYC scream.

    If you alter the Montague Target, then down basin states scream.

    Drought definition must be changed or the basin enters drought every year. The fish and bugs suffer.
    Who has a financial interest in storage being maintained in the resorviors and who has a financial interest in the montague target being lowered?

    Ill answer that. NYC and DRBC. Do you think that could be a motive for increasing storge?
    Or, add storage to the reservoirs. Everyone is happy.

    NYC
    DRBC
    Fish
    Fishermen
    DRF
    PA
    NY
    DE
    NJ
    Bugs
    Rivermaster
    FUDR?
    Do you presume to represent all those groups above?

    Im tired of all the smoke and mirrors, half answers and so on...

    Your dismissed!!


  7. #103
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    No, I am not on record saying a 600 release is where we will end up. I am on record saying, let the science decide and if 500-600 is what it says, great I am all for it.

    I admit to not having the knowledge and science to say 600 is best. At this time, no one else does either. If they do, show us all and save us a lot of work.

    You continue to ignore the EB and Neversink. What if they need 600 and 300? Protect all the rivers not just the WB.

    I still say, let the science decide and then we will get the water.

    If it takes changing Montague or adding storage to get the water, then we will do it.

    So what if someone has a financial interest in increasing storage, as long as the river gets the water it needs?

    I have spoken to all those groups about increasing storage and they are interested in pursuing that option. I put a question mark on FUDR, since I do not speak for them. How do they stand, let's ask.

    Let science determine what we need and then we can get the water. Otherwise you are just crying wolf.


  8. #104
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    Yo Yo releases are caused by an inflexible Montague Target. It is the rivermaster abiding by the Supreme Court decree that allows yo-yoing to save water.


  9. #105
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    From Fly Tier:

    Obviously a 600 Constant is not an average, but the reason it has to be an average is because the DEP holds it back, holds it back, then flushes the sytem. Refer to YoYo Releases.

    I do not understand what you are trying to say here, please explain.


  10. #106
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    I have decided to respond to Big Spinner in a PM. No longer will I debate him on this board. It is getting no where. If anywone wants a copy of my response to Big Spinner, PM me.

    --FT
    Nothing grows faster than a fish between the time the fish takes your fly...and the time he gets away.

  11. #107
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    FT Quote:
    "You are on record saying there is enough water in the system to do this, you are on record saying that 500 - 600CFS will be ultimately be where these studies will end up, you are on record saying that you want the same as FUDR as far as releases."

    If that's all true, why are you giving him a hard time? You make him sound as if he were already a FUDR member.

    Another one:

    "Who has a financial interest in storage being maintained in the resorviors and who has a financial interest in the montague target being lowered?

    Ill answer that. NYC and DRBC. Do you think that could be a motive for increasing storge?"

    Wow! I'm glad you see that there are financial motivations in this debate over the 600cfs release. And, of course, we'd all be remiss if we believed those motivations could only be on one side of the fence, right?

    Mayfly, I've brought that up before, but it kinda goes unheeded. Why the heck NYC would do ANYTHING to put their water supply in jeopardy is beyond me. They did not build those reservoirs to create a fishery. It just kinda happened. Then instead of being grateful, a bunch of "holier than thou" fishermen berate them while demanding them to release more water for their hobby.

    Yeah, one could bring up the local economy that has developed around the fishery... but, it's ONLY there because NYC built the dams! They should be happy they've had income from the activities surrounding the river. Was the Delaware river economy said to be worth 25-30 million? If you solely use the "economy argument", NYC could say "here is 30 million a year to divide amongst the towns on the D; now go away".

    How do you get them(NYC) to change their minds? I don't understand what some people hope to do. Sit at the table and say "We want 600 cfs"? When NYC/DEP says "NO!" What then? How does an organization of people connected by of all things, a hobby, get them to change? Convince them that it is possible? If we are asking them for favors, we better start kissing some butt instead of bad mouthing them.

    Where am I mistaken?
    John

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

  12. #108
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    John,

    "Why the heck NYC would do ANYTHING to put their water supply in jeopardy is beyond me. They did not build those reservoirs to create a fishery. It just kinda happened. Then instead of being grateful, a bunch of "holier than thou" fishermen berate them while demanding them to release more water for their hobby.

    Yeah, one could bring up the local economy that has developed around the fishery... but, it's ONLY there because NYC built the dams! They should be happy they've had income from the activities surrounding the river. Was the Delaware river economy said to be worth 25-30 million? If you solely use the "economy argument", NYC could say "here is 30 million a year to divide amongst the towns on the D; now go away".

    How do you get them(NYC) to change their minds? I don't understand what some people hope to do. Sit at the table and say "We want 600 cfs"? When NYC/DEP says "NO!" What then? How does an organization of people connected by of all things, a hobby, get them to change? Convince them that it is possible? If we are asking them for favors, we better start kissing some butt instead of bad mouthing them."

    EXACTLY!

    Now, someone please shut these types of threads down or just put them in a 'conservation' type catagory so those who are interested in them can bicker among themselves.

    Allan

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