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  1. #85
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    Future,

    That may not always be possible, if we got sudden heavy rains, and the res could be close to full. But you are correct, COLD water is whats wanted and needed here. Seems like when we have lots of water in the res, that should be feasible, but all parties must agree to it. That's probably the sticking point.

    Jim,

    About increasing the size of Cannonsville, is something in the works and where do we sign up? Maybe if it's funded partially by fisherman, the fishery would be partially the beneficiary?

    Bruce


  2. #86
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    Future,
    There is a DEC law that I have posted about the spilling over the top. Here it is again.
    Part 671.3
    Section titled:
    OPERATION OF THE CANNONSVILLE, PEPACTON AND NEVERSINK RESERVIORS

    (b) 2
    WHENEVER the Cannonsville, Pepacton or Neversink reservoir is spilling, the city shall, in order to improve fishery habitat in the river flowing below such reservoir, release water from such reservoir up to a maximum amount which equals the amount of water which would otherwise be spilling from such reservoir, or the capacity of the valves, whichever is lesser.

    Last week, they were doing some releases but still not doing what they are required to do. They were doinf half, so as I see it they were half following the law. The reasoning I received was because NYC was afraid if they release the same amount that was spilling, the reservoir may drop a couple of inches.

    Its a tough situation. Big Spinner and others have repeatadly said, its up to us to make sure these regulations are followed. I disagree with that completely, it is up to the DEC to make sure they follow the regulations. This is one of the many downfalls of the current plan. There is nothing that says any releases for habitat have to be made. So that habitat bank can be a billion CFS, there is still no guarantee any has to be released.

    --FT
    Nothing grows faster than a fish between the time the fish takes your fly...and the time he gets away.

  3. #87
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    A constant release of 600 has other implications to storage. More water will be needed to maintain a 600 minimum release, unless you can change the Montague Target.

    Rivermaster needs:

    600
    1000
    400
    200
    800

    With a minimum release of 600, more water will need to be released to keep a 600 minimum. If you can reduce Montague so that the releases could be like this over the 5 day stretch, hten no more water is needed and 600 constant is possible.

    600
    600
    600
    600
    600

    This uses the same amount of water, but you have to alter Montague for this to happen. Without changes to Montague and with a 600 minimum release the numbers would look like this
    600
    1000
    600
    600
    800

    and require 600 cfs more water over the 5 day stretch.

    I am all for manipulating the Montague Target to create water for the fishery. IT must be done so as not to jeopordize the lower flow days. But maybe if you have a maxium release allowed of 1000 cfs on the WB, and let Montague drop below 1750 when more is really needed, that may work. Or if you impose a higher minimum release on the WB and EB you could also drop Montague to 1500 knowing the upper rivers are protected.

    If you look at Hale Eddy Flow today, the minimum for this date on record is 78. That occurred in 2001 and was a real killer to the river. At least the new flow plan prevents that.

    No matter what regulation you have to mandate flows and releases, the informed, involved fishermen still need to be watch dogs over the DEC and rivermaster. That is why it is up to us to make sure that regulations are followed.

    There have been preliminary talks with officials concerning increasing storage to reservoirs. Cost estimates and feasibility are coming.

    Raise the dams and make Montague more flexible and you will get enough water for all 4 rivers.

    Going fishing, bye


  4. #88
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    Originally posted by Serio

    I agree with you that Main Stem studies should also be done. THe USGS stuff includes many main stem sites. Hopefully, DEC or FUDR or DRF can also fund the study for the main stem. This would be one simialr to what DEC is doing on the other rivers. I don't think it will be that much money. DEC feels that it is more difficult to work on the big river and that results would not be meaningful. I say, lets do the study and get the data and then determine how meaningful they are. I do not want to look back three years from now and say, "darn, I wish we had main stem data". Lets figure out how to get it done. Thats what the DRF would like to do.

    Good day fishing today. Some very nice fish!
    .......

    It would've been better to have included the main stem from Hancock to Callicoon before you - as spokesman of the DRF - cut that three year deal with NYS DEC and the DRBC.

    Not after.

    The East Branch and Neversink were included - however no mention of the upper part of the main stem - a tailwater wild trout fishery that relies solely on coldwater releases for its' health.

    Good fishing today? I guess it depends where you were on the river Jim.

    Your ignorance of the area Long Eddy south to Callicoon continues.

    Many more smallmouth bass and chubs in the areas north of Callicoon Jim - why do you suppose that is?

    At least this morning - Wednesday - we're getting a cool soaking which will drop the water temperature on the MS from the low to mid seventies into the low to mid sixties along with cooler weather for Memorial Day. [40's night / 65 day]

    It should be a great weekend - - thanks to Mother Nature.

    Good fishing to all...

    TR
    Narrowsburg
    www.delawareriverfishing.com


  5. #89
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    Why doesnt the SEF who has the big purse strings and spending 750,000 dollars to study the Dwarf Wedge Mussels, 247,000 for the Study on the west branch and other studies... They should fund a study on the Main stem. How can you expect two small volunteer organizations, FUDR, or DRF to raise these kind of funds Jim? SEF gets all the federal funding.

    Maybe you are backing the wrong horse if you think they are lacking in their studies. This is the process you are backing and now you are saying they are not doing the correct studies?

    --FT
    Nothing grows faster than a fish between the time the fish takes your fly...and the time he gets away.

  6. #90
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    Speaking of the dwarf wedge mussel, does anyone know what conditions they prefer, and how might that might help or hurt the situation on the Delawares if they need protection?

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

  7. #91
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    FF... OPINION: Could you believe, 3/4 Million dollars to study the dwarf wedge mussels which have really no impact on the economics in the area and $247,000 to study the West Branch habitat which has significant economic impact on the area. And, the answers after 3 years? We will be back to where we are currently today.

    Jim your post above about the 600CFS and implications.... I think this is misleading with regards to water the River Master needs to meet the 1750CFS at Montague. Historically, there has always been enough water, average has been greater than 600CFS, and now we seem to be forgetting about what PPL may add to this and the increased releases from Neversink and Pepacton.

    But, Lets just look at it as a hypothetical.

    Hypothetically: Today, there is a flow of 1750CFS at Montague, which includes the 600 CFS release. Tomorrow, the flow at Montague is 1500CFS so the River master now calls for 250CFS. You are saying the release on the West will now be 600CFS + 250CFS = 850CFS release. Where does it say that the 250CFS HAS to come from Cannonsville? Can't they pull the water from Neversink or Pepacton or Cannonsville? or a combination of all three? They can take 50 from Cannonsville, 50 from Neversink 150 from Pepacton. What about the Lake Wallenpaupack? There are many combinations to choose from, I never read anything where it says all the water the release manager needs to meet the Montague target HAS to come from Cannonsville

    --FT
    Nothing grows faster than a fish between the time the fish takes your fly...and the time he gets away.

  8. #92
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    Please clear this up for me

    Fly Tier-

    I am not sure if I am reading the 671.3 rule correctly.

    (b) 2
    WHENEVER the Cannonsville, Pepacton or Neversink reservoir is spilling, the city shall, in order to improve fishery habitat in the river flowing below such reservoir, release water from such reservoir up to a maximum amount which equals the amount of water which would otherwise be spilling from such reservoir, or the capacity of the valves, whichever is lesser.


    It states that the city has to release "UP TO a maximum amount which equals the amount of water which would otherwise be spilling."

    Does "Up to" mean that they can release less than what is actually spilling?

    This is confusing.


  9. #93
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    Does not really matter from river master perspective. The water still comes out of the reservoirs and you need more total water if you make the 600 be a minimum, unless you change Montague.


  10. #94
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    PPL will not be adding any more total water to the system during the summer months. Less in July and more in August. Same total.


  11. #95
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    Jon Boy,
    That means they can not release more that what is spilling under this reg. It means they are required to release what is spilling and not a drop over.

    Big Spinner-
    You say: " If you look at Hale Eddy Flow today, the minimum for this date on record is 78. That occurred in 2001 and was a real killer to the river. At least the new flow plan prevents that."

    Does it matter if the flow is 78 or 1000 if the water temps are still high? No!

    --FT
    Nothing grows faster than a fish between the time the fish takes your fly...and the time he gets away.

  12. #96
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    The 671.3 regulation reads to me that as long as they are releasing any water (less than what is spilling), they are abiding. Seems like the wording was tricky as to "cover their butts." None-the-less there doesn't seem to be any violation as per the regulation to me.


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