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  1. #37
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    TR, the article was specifically about the West Branch, but I know that reporters can get things mixed up... but when the reporter asked, "What if water levels rarely go above 160 cfs this summer?", your answer, "There are still good areas to fish, but many lies and holes get dried up and fish move to deeper lies," was about the MS? I had no idea that the MS ever got that low.

    Or, is what you are saying, that you were using flows on the West Branch to describe fishing on the MS?

    In any event, you do stand behind the quotes, "Ritter said water needs to be at least 3 feet deep to float.
    "Drifting is best because you cover a lot more water," he said. "In 2 feet of water, you'd be in and out of the boat 16 times. It makes for a long day."', yes?

    And so, is it true that in order to float and not have a "long day"as you put it , "water needs to be between 500 to 600 cfs" in the West Branch(assuming now that all of your quotes on flows were about the West Branch)?

    I just want to be clear.

    WH, No I am not a member of TU. There is a chapter up around Oneonta, which is relatively close, but it seems if I were to ever join, that it might be a bit silly to join a chapter that is farther away from the rivers I will most probably be fishing. There is something to be said though for joining a chapter of which I would be able to get to more meetings, yes? I guess that's a question to everyone, closer to home or closer to the rivers I'll be fishing, what say you?

    John

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

  2. #38
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    Future,

    The problem with fish all moving into certain areas is that those area's eventually get fished much too hard + the water has a tendency to heat up in those area's. If the fishermen don't kill the trout, the hot water temps will.

    Whatever TR may be referring to, the bottom line is that more cooler water is better, regardless if you float or wade. 500 past Hale Eddy is pretty low. On consistent hot days while the water is only 500 past Hale Eddy, a concern flag should go up. That's just my opinion. I'm not 100% positive, but is 500 flow in the area directly above the Hale Eddy Bridge, 3ft? I'm willing to bet that it's only 1 - 1 1/2 foot at best, it then gets deeper as you go toward the bridge and downstream a bit.

    Pictures taken before/after/during fly fishing:
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  3. #39
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    Future,

    You can read into whatever you want to from TR. The MAIN concern here is water temps. I have seen the WB floated numerour times at 325 CFS without problems, I would not consider fishing the WB if the temps were approaching 72 anywhere, regardless of FLOW. If your main consideration is wadeability, low flows will eventually jeopardize the fishery. Mother Nature will see to that. If the mainstem suffers, so will the WB and the EB. Where do you think most of the of thousands of little browns on the WB come from? There are loads of browns and rainbows that come up the EB and WB to 'do their thing'.
    It's not about the ability to float a drift boat, bud, it's about the health of the fishery.

    Bruce


  4. #40
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    Originally posted by Future Fanatic
    TR, the article was specifically about the West Branch, but I know that reporters can get things mixed up... but when the reporter asked, "What if water levels rarely go above 160 cfs this summer?", your answer, "There are still good areas to fish, but many lies and holes get dried up and fish move to deeper lies," was about the MS? I had no idea that the MS ever got that low.
    ........
    >>IMO, a low level for the main stem would be anything below 2.7 feet - or about 575 cfs - measured at Callicoon USGS.

    >>A few years ago, the lowest I can recall for the MS in September was at 2.4 feet. You could literally work the run in the mid current down to Kellams which - as most know - is pretty swift under normal circumstances.

    >> However, it was mid September and the water was about 64 degrees.
    ..........

    Or, is what you are saying, that you were using flows on the West Branch to describe fishing on the MS?
    >>My comments were for the main stem - specifically from Long Eddy to Callicoon but can be applied to the MS to Hancock.

    .........

    In any event, you do stand behind the quotes, "Ritter said water needs to be at least 3 feet deep to float.
    "Drifting is best because you cover a lot more water," he said. "In 2 feet of water, you'd be in and out of the boat 16 times. It makes for a long day."', yes?
    >> You could not float the MS in two feet of water measured at Callicoon USGS. You wuld be oout of the boat in many places .And, at 2.4 feet the MS is very skinny.

    >> As I mentioned, 2.8 to 3.3 is optimal for wading and drifting on the main stem. That would equate to 750 cfs [2.8 feet] to 1500cfs [3.3 feet] for the main stem.

    >> If you refer to the USGS numbers for flow on the West Branch during the summer of 2002 and 2003, you will find that flows of 250 to 400cfs measured at Hale Eddy will not cool down the water temperatures to Callicoon. In fact, flows at Hale Eddy will yield water temps from 75 to 84 degrees by the end of the day at Callicoon on the MS.

    >> Obviously, factors such as warm water over the top of Cannosville and water in the tribs will influence the water temps on themain stem as well.

    >> Note: Please remember to use those figures for the main stem and not the West Branch since the CFS are calculated differently for differering rivers due to width of river and volume of water.

    ...............

    And so, is it true that in order to float and not have a "long day"as you put it , "water needs to be between 500 to 600 cfs" in the West Branch(assuming now that all of your quotes on flows were about the West Branch)?
    >>Ideally, there should be at least 600 cfs flow upwards to 1100cfs - and not top warmwater spill - going through the USGS gauge at Hale Eddy in the ten to twelve weeks of mid June through late August when coldwater species - especially on the MS could be jeopardy since it is proven that in 2002 and 2003 water was in excess of 75 degrees for a period of thirty days.

    Best...
    TR
    www.delawareriverfishing.com


  5. #41
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    Bruce,
    I don't think think I did and I don't think that ANYONE has to read a thing into that article. It's pretty much there in black and white. That said, I don't think everyone fighting for 600cfs on the WB is thinking about float trips. I think any objective reader though, after getting done with that article, understands that guides and fishermen want 500-600 cfs flows on the West Branch so they can have an easier time floating the river, because that is a better way to fish. Do you see that? TR said that the quotes were from two or three years ago, BEFORE these past two summers with those crazy temps on the MS. I think that fighting for "lower temperatures" on the main stem for some, is a great way to kill two birds with one stone, while at the same time deflecting what this may be partly about for them. IMO

    With temperatures from 75-84 degrees, did the trout die(some people have written that there were "fish kills" but I have not heard specifically that they were trout (I remember reading suckers maybe ))? I mean what temperature is lethal for a trout? And if the fishing is still good this year at Callicoon after horrible temperatures such as those, how is that explained? If the fish can survive 84 degree temperatures, is the issue partly that the lack of flows just makes it is too warm to fish for them during those warm spells?

    John

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

  6. #42
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    You should not fish for trout in water over 71 although some shops will say up to 73.

    As far as actual fatality temps... Lethal temps for browns average about 75, while bows can manage at slightly higher temps, 76 -77. Other factors include PH Levels, food source, oxygen content, and something else people don't think about: How heavy is the stream pounded by fishermen. If you catch a trout in water above 72, you can pretty much kiss that trout goodbye. Another thing to look at being this is a Tail water we're talking about, can the trout in this system survive being shocked over and over again? One day the water temp may be 56 and the next morning it's down to 42.

    Pictures taken before/after/during fly fishing:
    http://dcabarle.smugmug.com/Sports/F...79119552_XXeHe

  7. #43
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    Dennis,

    While I agree that trout shouldn't be fished for when the water hits certain limits, I can offer a reason why some fishers may not care.

    Suppose you're just a working stiff, or anyone for that matter, who has saved for a vacation to the Catskills. You've made guaranteed reservations, made travel arrangements, secured kennel reservations for your dog, prepared the whole year (or more), made arrangements at your place of business/employment, your family is really excited, etc. etc. You and your family make the drive, settle into the motel/campground. Early the next morning you and your family, maybe even a friend you've brought along, go to one of the flyshops to get licences. You hear people talking about the conditions and that the river(s) should not be fished because the stress on the fish may cause them to die. Now that is just their point of view and a voluntary 'fishing stopage'. There's no law, per se, that forces anyone not to fish.

    I can see this person saying, "BS! We've too much invested in this trip not to fish where we wanted. We'll fish and release what we catch and hopefully the fish will survive."

    If the state feels otherwise, let it close the water.

    Allan

  8. #44
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    Future (John),

    There are certainly going to be fish (trout) kills that no one witnesses. Someone isn't watching every stretch of river at all times. The dead fish will get consumed, possibly without being noticed by humans. The temps that were discussed above will kill fish, sure some will probably survive depending on how long the temps remain high, but the largest ones will die first. The higher flows (lower temps) will allow the fish to thrive, not just survive.
    The lower flow regime will not sufficiently cool the big river as often as it needs to be. A lot of folks might not be aware of what currently exists (fishwise) or how much better it could be. I don't like doing this, but I'll give you a report of what we caught from Friday evening to Monday evening.

    DAY Result
    ----- -------
    5/14 3(12-18)
    5/15 4(11-21)
    5/16 5(13-19)
    5/17 10(12-19)

    11 of the fish were 17+. These are all WILD fish.
    This is not uncommon on the D, and I believe it could be better!!
    Also, spoke to Lee Hartman, and he showed me a pic of a gorgeous 23" Brown one of his clients caught recently. What a fish!!!
    If you want me to show you, let me know.


    Willowhead, you are quite sarcastic. I would be very happy IF the low flows could keep the mainstem(not just in Hancock) cool enough to sustain the trout fishery. For example, on Saturday, temps soared, water temps were taken at Hankins campground by TR (I met him on the river) to be 67 at about 1pm. Only saw 1 trout rise all day! From 8am - 8:30pm. Monday there was some water released from Cannonsville and Pepacton. Fished around Hancock, lots of bugs and targets. Big difference from Saturday.

    Problem is the overall health of the trout fishery should not be sacrificed for wadeability. It's a large river, similar to some western rivers and you can't wade everywhere, but there are plenty of places to go. I've been fishing the Delaware system for 30 years of more and have had decent success while wading even when the water is high, but not when the water is warm.

    Respectfully,

    Bruce


  9. #45
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    Bruce (or others),

    It's 3:00PM and the water temperature is say 67 degrees at Calicoon, what would the temperature be at Deposit. Okay, I know it depends on air temperature and the amount of of direct sun but on average what would be your guess or is there a formula?

    Thanks.

    Allan

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    Allan,

    Anything I say would be just a guess. There are way too many vairables. I'll list:

    Water levels (EB and WB)
    Water clarity
    How much cold water release
    Recent rains (can be very scattered)

    This is besides the items that you mention (Air temp and sun).
    Obviously, the higher and less clear the water is at Hale Eddy, the less difference in temp at Callicoon. We'd really have to look at the USGS historical data to compare.

    But I would say it's possible to have say 50 degrees at Hale Eddy and 67 or even warmer at Callicoon if the Cannonsville release was fairly low and Oquaga creek was low, and say the EB was running at a moderate level and more than 60. But the USGS has the data, and one could probably find circumstances similar to what I have mentioned.

    Bruce.


  11. #47
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    Bruce,

    The overall health of the trout fishery should not be sacrificed for wadeablility or floatability.

    Mark......

    Mark J. Romero
    www.fudr.org
    607-498-9944
    M&M Fly Fishing
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    94 Yorktown Road
    Roscoe, N.Y. 12776-5017

  12. #48
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    So Mark, are you saying that if the suggested RELEASE schedule (FUDR) is followed, that the overall health of the trout fishery will be sacrificed for floatability?

    Bruce


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