Delaware River Club
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  1. #13
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    Dennis,

    I think you unknowingly made one of the points of those that have concerns about the "who and why they" want the 600 MINIMUM flows.

    "Granted, Hale Eddy at over 800 can be difficult to wade, the WB is by far off limits to wading. Those charts in my opinion are for people not familiar with the river who can only find a spot like Hale Eddy (Stop by and get yourself a guide who is more familiar with the river than you are). "

    John

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

  2. #14
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    Dennis,

    I'd like to know how you can say that when there is a flow of 1800cfs at Hale Eddy, "Less than a mile away is very easily wadable water up to 2300 or more! At 1800, you can walk across without getting your hips wet". You've got to be kidding? Then you say, "If Hale Eddy is above 1250, that tells me to consider fishing elsewhere, not to not bother to come up for the day because Hale Eddy is difficult to wade".

    First, let's go to my comment about ACCESS. Aside from Hale Eddy where are you going to have access? PA side to Hancock: The 2 PA Gameland spots and then Balls Eddy. NY side to Hancock: a couple of pull-off from route 17. Below Hancock for several miles on NY side: Bard Parker. PA side for several miles: I think 3 spots and 1 is being challenged by a landowner.

    Regardless of the plan adopted, and hopefully it will be successful, if the Delawares are or become the greatest trout fishery in the east, what good does it do to the 'average Joe fisherman' if he/she cannot gain walk-in access to it?

    Allan

    Allan

  3. #15
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    Alan

    I can wade the west branch in almost any tail out up to 1500 - 2300 cfs!!!

    I can wade many pools along the banks and I AM still able to hit my targets in the foam lines.

    FYI At levels of 1500 plus most of the fish are stacked up along the banks and are in the tailouts, and that's where you would want to be.

    If anyone would like, I would be more than happy to meet up anywhere anytime on the west and show you how its done at those levels..



  4. #16
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    Future,
    I'll try to answer your questions, but these answers are MY opinion,

    1) " How is the plan for the next three years WORSE than what had been in place for the last five? Please, be specific."

    Here we're talking about 160 CFS minimum RELEASE compared to 225 CFS minimum FLOW measured at Hale Eddy. Which one is better is hard to say. There will be times when one is better than the other, but neither one would be better at all times. For instance, during the thermal stress times, when Oquaga and the tribs between Cannonsville dam and Hale Eddy are additively flowing more than 65 CFS, the 160 CFS minimum RELEASE would be better than the 225 CFS minimum FLOW plan. And if the tribs are flowing less than 65 CFS, then the 225 CFS minimum FLOW would be better. But over the last five years, there have been fish kills on the main stem (more than one that I have heard of). The older 325 CFS minimum RELEASE during the thermal stress months was better than either of these.

    2)" And if it's not worse, why all the alarm about the imminent demise of the fishery when seemingly all the people pushing for 600 say the upper Delaware is a world class fishery NOW (without any help from the water barons)?"

    I believe I answered the one above. (325 RELEASE was better, as the fish kills could have been a lot worse over the last five years if Mother Nature had given us hotter and drier Summers)

    3. "What is the estimate (that some expert must have thought about) for AVERAGE flows on the WB and MS, given a MINIMUM 600cfs flow on the WB. "

    I would expect that if there was an agreement to the 600 CFS RELEASE (not flow) on the WB during the thermal stress period, that there would not aften be the need to RELEASE more very often. The average flows at Hale Eddy could be calculated by adding 600 CFS to the AVERAGE of the tribs during the time period we're talking about. The 600 CFS release is the historical AVERAGE release duringthis thermal stress period (from what I understand), so to me there would be no change in what the AVERAGE has historically been. I will try to get the specific number for what the average flow would be at Hale Eddy. I don't have the data in front of me right now.

    Bruce


  5. #17
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    Bruce,

    Thanks for trying to answer the questions that the FUDR guys seem to be avoiding.

    Here are a couple of other points:

    A 160 release will still be going down river this summer. The reason for the change to allow that to decrease was in times of cool over flow, the habitat bank can save the extra 100 cfs. From what I understand, this is also when the river master is calling for large releases, the "Conservation Bank" water can decrease from 160 to 60. So if the rivermaster needs to release 1000, the Conservation Bank does not lose wate. This is like getting free water for the fishery. It still comes down to increasing flexibility.

    Everyone seems to forget that the reason DEC changed from a 325 release 6/15-8/15 to a release of 160 from 6/1-9/15 was in part due to the outcry of various fishing groups that were concerned that low early June flows were crippling the river. The change in release protocol was to try to get some cool release in early June and late August.

    Hot dry summers are the best for the river! That means that the rivermaster will be releasing 800-1400 cfs out of Cannonsville ALL summer. As long as the reservoir refills, that is the best we can get. In a "normal year" we want the reservoirs full on June 1st and not spilling warm water. Then, everything starts to dry up quickly and habitat bank water is released for flow and temperature. Before the bank runs dry, we want the rivermaster to need water for Montague. Then he keeps 600-1400 in the West Branch all summer. What is left of the habitat bank can then be used for minimum flows through the next winter.

    I am hopeful that the new permanent solutions will eliminate the need to hope for dry summers. Last year was of course the opposite of what we really needed. Lots of warm natural flow. No need for rivermater releases.

    Average flows will go up substantially if a 600 release is mandated on the WB. IF there is a rivermaster requirement of 800, 300, 800, the 600 constant release will increase the average for those 3 days by 100 cfs (800,600,800). That is why we need to change the Montague Target so that we can have a regime of 700,700,700, which will make the fish very happy and still satisfy the Montague target. This is a tough one to explain and understand. I tried my best.


  6. #18
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    Joe,

    You're right. I do have to get out and fish more.

    I'm curious though, would you expand on your comment about more access points then I mentioned. Those are the only ones I am familiar with through my limited experience. Must have missed others but I'd like to hear where they are.

    Not being a smart ass just very interested.

    Allan

    Allan

  7. #19
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    Allan,

    Let's say the river at Hale Eddy is 60 feet wide (That's just a guestimate). The water is flowing at 1850 at 60 feet wide. Of course it's illogical and yes, just about impossible to fish Hale Eddy at this rate however, move elsewhere where the stream might be 120 feet wide. You with me here.

    I know my comments "not to not" wouldn't make much sense to anyone but me, but I posted it anyway... What I meant was that if Hale Eddy is at 1250, I will fish elsewhere on the WB rather than not to come up and fish the WB at all. 1250 does not deter me from fishing the WB.

    As far as access, you've got some spots in the Deposit area that you can fish too. What I do is knock on doors until I find someone willing to let me fish their property. "Pardon me for interrupting while you're eating".

    Originally posted by Mayfly
    Dennis,

    I'd like to know how you can say that when there is a flow of 1800cfs at Hale Eddy, "Less than a mile away is very easily wadable water up to 2300 or more! At 1800, you can walk across without getting your hips wet". You've got to be kidding? Then you say, "If Hale Eddy is above 1250, that tells me to consider fishing elsewhere, not to not bother to come up for the day because Hale Eddy is difficult to wade".

    First, let's go to my comment about ACCESS. Aside from Hale Eddy where are you going to have access? PA side to Hancock: The 2 PA Gameland spots and then Balls Eddy. NY side to Hancock: a couple of pull-off from route 17. Below Hancock for several miles on NY side: Bard Parker. PA side for several miles: I think 3 spots and 1 is being challenged by a landowner.

    Regardless of the plan adopted, and hopefully it will be successful, if the Delawares are or become the greatest trout fishery in the east, what good does it do to the 'average Joe fisherman' if he/she cannot gain walk-in access to it?

    Allan


    Pictures taken before/after/during fly fishing:
    http://dcabarle.smugmug.com/Sports/F...79119552_XXeHe

  8. #20
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    Dennis,

    Let's see. I asked about access from Hale's Eddy down. Last time I looked, Deposit was upstream. Another thing: H.E. being 60 feet across? Perhaps you should get out a measuring devise. Finally, I have absolutely no idea what the effect of a wider river would have on the flow. I would imagine that depth and shape of the river would have some effect as well. Regardless, if WBAs identify certain flow speeds as being hazzardous to wade in and Al Caucci's DRC posts this wading information:
    "1500-2500 - the river really changes character at this level. Wading is really not possible, but floating the river can yield really nice fishing."
    I'll take their cautions as accurate and disregard your statement about not getting your hips wet. Now this mean 'wading', not walking the bank.

    Allan

  9. #21
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    Allan,

    I know it's more than 60ft across. That's not the point I was trying to make though.

    The point is that if you have an area of water that is 60 feet across at 3feet deep, and another area that is 120 feet across and also 3 feet deep, with the same amount of water flowing through it... Do I really have to explain this?

    As to your remark:
    Regardless, if WBAs identify certain flow speeds as being hazzardous to wade in and Al Caucci's DRC posts this wading information:
    "1500-2500 - the river really changes character at this level. Wading is really not possible, but floating the river can yield really nice fishing."
    If I have a piece of sidewalk and I dump a bucket of paint over it, than that piece of sidewalk has changed character. This doesn't make it impossible for me to keep my feet free of paint. Knowing how to use my two feet, I walk over the painted sidewalk and continue onto my destination. What you're doing, Allan, is looking at a chart posted on a business's website and saying, "It's there, it must be perfect." If I posted a message on this site telling you that all rivers will be closed for 2 weeks for river maintenance, what would you say?

    Allan, the charts you look at obviously reflect where the readings are taken. Get out a little and fish other areas. Sometimes everything posted on the internet is not perfect. For an example, "Stay away from the Neversink Gorge, I came back to my car and there was sh#t all over it, bears were chasing me through the woods, the quicksand almost gobbled me up, Indians hide out in trees looking to scalp innocent fly fishermen..."

    Pictures taken before/after/during fly fishing:
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  10. #22
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    Alan

    Both flyshops give numbers on wading and they are very conseravative, since inexperieced anglers may not know the river and get seriously injured. I would think that there's some liabilty if one of the shops posted on their website that wading at 2500 cfs is the norm.

    It's not normal per say and it takes experience and you have to know where you can fish.

    Why dont you call a few shops and tell them that you're very experienced and ask them what tailouts or sections they would reccomend you to wade at levels of 2000 cfs? I bet their answer is different than on line.

    Access, don't tell me you look for little brown signs that say dec access park here!

    I would never tell you or anyone here on line (offline I would) how and where I fish. There are at least a dozen locations that are not marked as "access".

    Go fish the river as I have from top to bottom on both sides for a for years(not once now) and figure it out as I have and many others as well.

    I FISH AND WADE THE WEST BRANCH (NOT THE BANKS) UP TO 2500 CFS IN MANY TAILOUTS OF THE RIVER.


    And catch fish!!!!!!


  11. #23
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    Perhaps I've misread some statements on here but here are my thoughts
    If the river master calls for 800 300 800 over a 3 day period to reach the Montague target but instead releases 800 600 800 what has been lost? The yo yo effect from a 500 cfs change in both directions is now a 200 cfs change. Less dramatic changes are better for the fishery.
    We would gain an extra 300 cfs on the middle day to help protect the upper main. I feel that's a good thing.

    The daily flow would be 600 cfs + feeders and rainfall. You would have higher flows if the rivermaster needed water but that is what would happen under normal conditions anyway. 600- 2000 is wadable (I only like to wade or float when the river is cool enough to not stress the fish)

    Hot dry summers are best for the river, when PPL is not releasing to meet the Montague target. Keep in mind that they do not release for a 24 hour period. They release for a portion of the day and then average the release into a 24 hour period. During the times they are not releasing the Montague target must be met. Yo Yo releases./ What are the limits to what PPL can release?
    Jeff White


  12. #24
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    Fanatic,

    Please read the DRBC plan, then please read all of the concerns from the FUDR.

    If you would just take the time to read the concerns release from the friends, you will find that the answers to your questions are already out there for you and well thought out I might add, and very specific.

    You have my phone number if you would like to call me.

    JOE.T
    Tight Lines.


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