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  1. #109
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    Just when I thought we were making some progress fly tier.

    I think that this has been helpful and educational to many people. Give it one more try.

    Of course my answers may seem slanted to my perspective of the debate. That is what a debate is all about. Me trying to convince you that I am right and you trying to convince me that you are right.

    I have never made false statements to my knowledge and, if I did it was a mistake and not intentional. I am sure I will corrected if I did.

    I continue to try to educate by giving the facts and will continue to do so until the rivers get the water they need.

    Check you PM Fly Tier and good luck fishing this weekend.


  2. #110
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    Big S,

    Do you really hold the opinion that these posts have made this thread educational? Come to think of it, yes they have. I have learned that the old saying, 'Don't forget which side your bread is buttered', is true.

    Now, enough is enough. If there's something in place for 3 years and will be evaluated after that, let's see what happens and re-study the situation after that time. Till then ... go fish.

    Allan

  3. #111
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    not sure what you mean there allan?

    If these posts upset you so much, why not just skip them. You don't have to read them.

    In order to make sure that we get the most out of these next three years, we must remain viligent and continue to educate as many people as possible on the subject. The last ten years of work have enlightened many people about the Upper Delaware River System. Of course that means more people fishing my favorite spots. It is a Catch 22 if there ever was one.

    Make sure enough people can help, but that also means the river will be more heavily fished.

    Enjoy your fishing, it has been good!


  4. #112
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    I actually agree with Big Spinner here. The posts are a debate. Yes, they get heated and if people do not want to read them, pass them by. We do not have much choice for forums to get the points across. I know what Big Spinner means and he knows what I mean (both-- most of the time) We need to be vigilant. If nothing changes with the study before the 3 years is out regarding flows, what ever the study shows at the end of the three years, we will be stuck with. If for some crazy reason during the next three years, Mother Nature helps with cool weather and ample rain, and for some rediculous reason all the outside variables help the 225 flow(remember history shows otherwise but you never know), we could end up getting stuck with 225 Flow, with no guarantee for a cold water release, this could end up becoming reality for ever. Then what? NYC DEP has now given us the minimum amount they have to and ALL fisherman/woman will be screaming for cold water. There are definetely other issues with the East Branch and the Neversink. My personal opinion is that if the east was managed properly, it would be a much better fishery than the West. The reason I hammer the west and main in my points is because that is, right now, what has been the center of regulations, releases, PPL, etc... there are more difficult battles there.


    Hey can you change your name slightly so I can abbreviate it without putting it as "BS"

    --FT
    Nothing grows faster than a fish between the time the fish takes your fly...and the time he gets away.

  5. #113
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    Jim and all, I agree with your take that you don't have to read these posts if you don't want to but that may not appear as it seems. If you think your clicking on a topic to learn about the river or both groups that's one thing, but what your finding is a pissing contest a lot of the time. My point is you click looking for one thing and find another.

    I won't speak for anyone else but myself. I don't have a problem with the threads being informational just stop the drama.

    On the other hand,I think enough people are starting to say the same thing. It may be time to listen.

    Andre Valenti

  6. #114
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    Hey, if people want a boring board, with no drama, we can all go back to the Virtual Flyshop and listen to the same old people talking about the same old thing. I would consider the drama, passion about a topic that will have lasting effects on discussions for years to come.

    Almost every point and counter point is valid and educational.

    --FT
    Nothing grows faster than a fish between the time the fish takes your fly...and the time he gets away.

  7. #115
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    Fly,

    I agree with you 100% with only 1 exception... Keep it clean. I learned more about the system and the things that affect it in the past 4 months or so than I've known in the past 4 years. I enjoyed the debates when they were clean.

    By the way, I left a few informational pamphlets in the room I was staying in at the WBA. Hopefully the next group of people in that room will pick them up and read it. Also picked up a copy the of River Reporter and read an interesting article from a TU member in there.

    Pictures taken before/after/during fly fishing:
    http://dcabarle.smugmug.com/Sports/F...79119552_XXeHe

  8. #116
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    This one?

    http://www.riverreporter.com/issues/...2-tangler.html

    The writer is Clem Fullerton

    Delaware River flows

    A new day

    A new agreement was signed last week between the City of New York and the states of Delaware, New Jersey, New York and Pennsylvania regarding flows on the Delaware River, its branches, and the Neversink River. This follows a long three-year debate brought about in part by the new release program for Lake Wallenpaupack, which feeds the Upper Delaware via the Lackawaxen River.

    It is the hope of all parties that this new program will deliver a better environment for all species in these rivers. While the program is ongoing, the United States Geological Survey (USGS) will be mapping the flows in the East and West Branches of the Delaware this year and the main stem next year. The USGS will try to determine the best flows for the trout in these streams. Studies will also continue on the types of flows that will benefit the Dwarf Wedge Mussel, an endangered species found in both the Upper Delaware and the Neversink.

    The agreement, which will stand for the next three years, mandates the following flows: 225 cubic feet per second (CFS) on the West Branch, as measured at Hale Eddy’; the East Branch will get 175 CFS as measured at Harvard; and the Neversink will get 115 CFS as measured at Bridgeville. These are minimum flows, which will be released so long as we are not in drought watch or drought emergency situations. If the River Master calls for additional releases, flows could be much higher.

    In addition, there will be a habitat protection bank of 20,000 CFS days. That amounts to approximately 13 billion gallons of cold water.

    No one believes this is the absolutely perfect agreement for the Delaware—not the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation, Trout Unlimited, nor the Nature Conservancy. It is the best agreement that could be negotiated at this time, with the science now available.

    There are some that consider this to be a disaster for the Delaware. They insist that the river must be given more water than the agreement calls for. One group that calls itself Friends of the Upper Delaware arrived on the scene at the last possible moment, and its biggest contribution to Delaware flows so far has been to sow dissent amongst some Trout Unlimited (TU) Chapters. At a meeting held May 16, those TU chapters met for five hours, and at the end of the meeting each agreed to back the newly signed agreement. It should be noted that the prestigious conservation organization, Theodore Gordon Flyfishers, has refused to back the proposals put forth by Friends of the Upper Delaware.

    The saddest part of this disagreement is that I am unable to saddle up and ride with my old friend Phil Chase. For Phil and I, this is like the Blue and the Gray in the Civil War.

    While the flows demanded by Friends of the Upper Delaware would be nice to have, they are completely unrealistic. In the first place, there simply is not enough water in the system to meet their flows (600 CFS in warm months and 300 CFS in winter) year in and year out.

    Secondly, any demand for such large outflows from the affected reservoirs would undoubtedly alarm the downstream states. If either New Jersey or Delaware should become offended by large release demands, either state by one vote could terminate any plan it might deem a threat to the water it is entitled to. As things stand now, the cold-water habitat protection bank comes from water that these states have voluntarily committed to that bank. They could decide to end their generosity at any time. If that were to occur, the extremely valuable fishery that is the Delaware and its branches would disappear.

    Threats and bluster will not achieve better releases for our rivers. Precise scientific facts and patient negotiation is the only way to improve the fishery we have in the Delaware basin. The newly signed agreement—despite any disinformation you might have heard or received from Friends of the Upper Delaware—is the best hope for the Delaware. The folks who are leading that organization should heed the words of Benjamin Franklin, uttered during the Revolutionary War: “If we do not all hang together, we will most certainly all hang separately.”

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

  9. #117
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    No, there's actually a response to this one called something like, "What is the Tangler smoking"!

    Pictures taken before/after/during fly fishing:
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  10. #118
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    The one Dennis is mentioning was in last week's edition and it was in response to the weekly fishing column writers story that appeared in the prior weeks edition.

    Having read both my first thought was the both items were as polarized as some of the posts on NEFF. At least the readers got to see both postions.

    Michael M.


  11. #119
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    Originally posted by Michael M
    The one Dennis is mentioning was in last week's edition and it was in response to the weekly fishing column writers story that appeared in the prior weeks edition.

    Having read both my first thought was the both items were as polarized as some of the posts on NEFF. At least the readers got to see both postions.

    Michael M.
    ........

    As long as John [Future Fanatic] posted Clem's entire column from The River Reporter above, the editorial reposnse mentioned by Michael M can be found at:
    -----------

    http://www.riverreporter.com/issues/04-05-27/ed1.html

    ----------

    Best...
    TR


  12. #120
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    That reporter, Larry Miri, must be a great investigative reporter to be able to dig up those e-mails between individuals... .

    Hey Dennis, I can't help but think about that response you got on that "other trout board" from, I guess, a highly placed organization member(HPOM)? I see a parallel between the quote from the article I posted above (hanging separately if we don't hang together) and the HPOM's thoughts... " [we] have been frustrated by the conflicting and sometimes vitriolic rhetoric coming from them. I think both can do great things to protect this great area, I just wish the[y] would act in unison and could eliminate the impression of economic priority over environmental issues. Both are critical, but the perception of money over resource is making commitment to either group difficult."

    It seems that support for the system may be waiting in the wings (and maybe from more than a few sources), but waiting for the dust to clear. Let's hope that the support is still there when all fishermen decide to fight for the river and not fight eachother.

    By the way Dennis, I did not post that article to be a wise ass (not this time). I honestly thought that it was the article you were referencing. Thank you Ritter for posting what was indeed the article read by Dennis.

    John

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

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