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  1. #1
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    Before it's banished to the back room(or at least, a side room)...

    ... can someone from FUDR answer these?

    1. How is the plan for the next three years WORSE than what had been in place for the last five? Please, be specific.

    2. And if it's not worse, why all the alarm about the imminent demise of the fishery when seemingly all the people pushing for 600 say the upper Delaware is a world class fishery NOW (without any help from the water barons)?

    3. What is the estimate (that some expert must have thought about) for AVERAGE flows on the WB and MS, given a MINIMUM 600cfs flow on the WB.

    Thanks for your time.
    John


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    The past plan did not and the current plan will not not keep the water on the Mainstem cool enough. It's getting into the upper 70's and 80's.

    www.gonefishingguideservice.com/2002_main.html
    www.gonefishingguideservice.com/2003_main.html

    Let's work on making it better, not keeping it the same or worse. A healthier fishery is a better fishery. Right now, water reaching the upper 70's and 80's can be fatal to the fish.

    Pictures taken before/after/during fly fishing:
    http://dcabarle.smugmug.com/Sports/F...79119552_XXeHe

  3. #3
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    Dennis,

    If the water, at some point, gets too uncomfortable for the trout they will move! It's not like they must or do stay in one area and the heated water will become dangerous. The trout will migrate to where the water is cooler and more trout friendly. They(DEC) did tracking studies that proved trout migrate as much as 25 miles. So, the end results are that the trout go to more conducive water and the area where the water gets hot becomes a warmwater fishery.

    "Better" to some people means that they want the entire length of the mainstem to be a trout fishery. I have no idea what releases are required for that but maybe those releases will be too high and/or too cold on the stems that they'll result in poor conditions, especially for wading fishermen. 1500 cfs on the west branch at Hales Eddy may be good for drift boats, guides and cooler water down the mainstream but it has a price. If, at Hale's Eddy, the water is at that level, at that speed and the temperature is @ 45-50%, that does not make for a good fishery as far as the non boater is concerned and probably inhibits rising/feeding trout.

    So what if the water gets warm dowmstream on the mainstem. It's always been that way and the trout fishermen there will simply have to travel a little. Of course maybe some organization will push for more accesses and the mainstem fishermen won't have to be as dependent on drift boats to get them into the water. Then again, that doesn't correlate with the financial interests of the landowning fishing businesses or the guides. Therefore, it may not be a high, or even a low, priority.

    Allan

    Allan

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    As I read more and more about this plan it reminds of another article that I read a few weeks ago. It actually has to do with a stream in New Jersey where a quarry is shutting down the pumps that keep a flow downstream. Something was metioned in that post that what the quarry is actually doing is creating an artificial fishery. The way that I see it with all of the control of flows and temperatures what both of the groups in this case is exactly the same thing. Another artificial fishery. Just the way that I see it.


  5. #5
    Unregistered NEFF Guest


    Originally posted by Alan Podell, member Catskill Guild of Fly Tyers and talented tyer of a nice Hendrickson Compardun that my client nailed a nice 18 inch wild brown on last year - who incredibly said the following...


    {"So what if the water gets warm
    downstream on the mainstem. It's always been that way and the trout fishermen there will simply have to travel a little. Of course maybe some organization will push for more accesses and the mainstem fishermen won't have to be as dependent on drift boats to get them into the water. Then again, that doesn't correlate with the financial interests of the landowning fishing businesses or the guides. Therefore, it may not be a high, or even a low, priority."}

    Allan
    ...............

    Thanks for your consideration Alan.

    By the way, NYS DEC considers Callicoon, New York the southern point of the main stem tailwater. So does the NPS and the UDC.

    Please...look it up.

    If they want to change that designation, then have those agencies change the wording in the regs and bylaws.

    Until that day, they have a responsibility to enhance and preserve a coldwater fishery to Callicoon.

    Kindest regards,
    TR


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    Alan,

    Nobody ever said the entire lenght of the main stem, the trout fishery is designated from Hancock to Calicoon.

    Also who said anything about 1500 cfs? The number is a 600 release.

    Yes some fish will migrate to thermal refuge if they can, I guess you have never seen fish kills on the upper main stem from hancock to calicoon?

    This has nothing to do with being able to fish ,wade ,or float its to preserve the wild trout population on the Upper D.

    You may want to read the drbc plan, and than take a look at the FUDR website.


  7. #7
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    TR & Joe,

    I guess I miss understood a previous post about flows and the definition of 'mainstem'. However, I stand on my position that many of the people who have vested interests in the fishery are pushing for changes (albeit they will help the fishery) for reasons that will lead to personal benefits. You guys seem to seek improvements for everyones benefit. That's great. Unfortunately, there are those who personally benefit. Now that would be just fine with me but not when these people seek public support and then use the profits that support has brought them, buy land and then privatize and post it.

    Maybe I'm not saying it as clearly as I should but I hope you get my meaning.

    Allan

    Allan

  8. #8
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    Allan,

    I'd like to point out a few things. First, yes... Some fish do migrate, not all.

    There are more spots on the WB than Hale Eddy to fish!!!!! The WB is around 20 miles long! Less than a mile away is very easily wadable water up to 2300 or more! At 1800, you can walk across without getting your hips wet!

    As far as your 'So What' comment... You're kidding, right?





    Originally posted by Mayfly
    Dennis,

    If the water, at some point, gets too uncomfortable for the trout they will move! It's not like they must or do stay in one area and the heated water will become dangerous. The trout will migrate to where the water is cooler and more trout friendly. They(DEC) did tracking studies that proved trout migrate as much as 25 miles. So, the end results are that the trout go to more conducive water and the area where the water gets hot becomes a warmwater fishery.

    "Better" to some people means that they want the entire length of the mainstem to be a trout fishery. I have no idea what releases are required for that but maybe those releases will be too high and/or too cold on the stems that they'll result in poor conditions, especially for wading fishermen. 1500 cfs on the west branch at Hales Eddy may be good for drift boats, guides and cooler water down the mainstream but it has a price. If, at Hale's Eddy, the water is at that level, at that speed and the temperature is @ 45-50%, that does not make for a good fishery as far as the non boater is concerned and probably inhibits rising/feeding trout.

    So what if the water gets warm dowmstream on the mainstem. It's always been that way and the trout fishermen there will simply have to travel a little. Of course maybe some organization will push for more accesses and the mainstem fishermen won't have to be as dependent on drift boats to get them into the water. Then again, that doesn't correlate with the financial interests of the landowning fishing businesses or the guides. Therefore, it may not be a high, or even a low, priority.

    Allan


    Pictures taken before/after/during fly fishing:
    http://dcabarle.smugmug.com/Sports/F...79119552_XXeHe

  9. #9
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    Dennis,

    To clarify: I used 'Hale Eddy' as a point-of-reference since it is one of the most referenced USGS gauges on the west branch.

    Then you write'

    "The WB is around 20 miles long! Less than a mile away is very easily wadable water up to 2300 or more! At 1800, you can walk across without getting your hips wet!"

    Here's what West Branch Angler says about various west branch flows'
    "800 - 1000cfs - Moderately difficult wading - some spots are not reachable.
    1000 - 1200cfs - Difficult wading - many spots are not reachable by wading.
    1200 - 1600cfs - Very difficult wading - most all spots are not reachable. Extreme caution is advised. Pontoon boats ok.
    1600 - 2700cfs - Drift Boats Only!
    2700 + - Stay home and tie flies!"

    So unless you want to take a nice wet and dangerous plunge, I suggest you rethink your wading choices!

    JOE T - Like to hear your experienced opinion on wading, and I don't mean hugging the bank, when the flows are 1800 - 2300cfs.

    Allan

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    Allan,

    The "benefit" that's being attempted here is for the fishery, nothing more. And yes, it's an "artificial" fishery, just as Montana's Missouri and Bighorn, New Mexico's San Juan, Arkansas's White, and on and on. These are all Blue Ribbon trout waters. I doubt any of these would have trout without the cold water releases, certainly not the numbers of fish that they currently have (Also, they're releases are way above 600CFS).
    Nothing wrong to have one in New York.

    Bruce


  11. #11
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    Allan,

    What does Allan say about various west branch flows? It's been my experience that I can safely wade most spots I fish at 1600 or more.

    Granted, Hale Eddy at over 800 can be difficult to wade, the WB is by far off limits to wading. Those charts in my opinion are for people not familiar with the river who can only find a spot like Hale Eddy (Stop by and get yourself a guide who is more familiar with the river than you are). For someone as experience as you (I've only been fishing the Delaware system for 4 years), this chart should not apply.

    Hale eddy is just that, a reference. I use the flow at Hale Eddy as a reference to see where I'll be fishing, not to see if it's ok to fish Hale Eddy. If Hale Eddy is above 1250, that tells me to consider fishing elsewhere, not to not bother to come up for the day because Hale Eddy is difficult to wade. I hope this answers your question to Joe T as well.

    Pictures taken before/after/during fly fishing:
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  12. #12
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    Since nobody, and there were at least three FUDR supporters that took a gander at these:

    1. How is the plan for the next three years WORSE than what had been in place for the last five? Please, be specific.

    2. And if it's not worse, why all the alarm about the imminent demise of the fishery when seemingly all the people pushing for 600 say the upper Delaware is a world class fishery NOW (without any help from the water barons)?

    3. What is the estimate (that some expert must have thought about) for AVERAGE flows on the WB and MS, given a MINIMUM 600cfs flow on the WB.,

    can say that the new plan is WORSE than what was in effect for the past few years, then am I too assume that the FUDR position is not that the new plan is worse, but that it just does not go far enough to protect the Main Stem?

    Three years, with a plan, that, in effect, is better than what WAS in place (and created and sustained what we know is a "world class fishery") is too much time to waste? Three years to further study what will probably be needed to best sustain the fishery in the future is too much to ask? A three year plan, because it was supported by some sportsman's groups as well as an environmental group, showing their willingness to work within the system, with all the various political factions to find a solution, is unacceptable?

    What do we as fishermen, bring to the table? We have NOTHING to give any of the political concerns involved. A few votes? Do you want to be the "less than informed" politician that gives up water, only to possibly have a few million people not watering their lawns or washing their cars because you did? I'd gamble on a few thousand votes against the millions any day. We can point to the money we bring to the area. SO WHAT?!? As far as any politician should be concered, if NOTHING was given up in terms of any new agreement on flows, the amount of money that had been coming in to the area(in the past) would continue to come in. No gain, but no loss.

    I have no idea what will hit the ground after all the chaff blows away, but given that the new plan is no worse than what was in place and it lays a foundation for working with these groups in the future, it is bewildering the amount of in-fighting this topic has caused. Divide and Conquer- it seems we're trying to do that to ourselves.
    John

    John
    Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.--Henry David Thoreau

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