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  1. #121
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    Re: Global Warming a Hoax, don't worry you will still pay for it.

    We're already single-handedly underwriting the whole Asian economy (and by extension perpetuating their poor environmental practices). Do we not all agree that we're redistributing enough of our money now?

    Roll up the windows Brian, you're letting the stank out.

  2. #122
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    Re: Global Warming a Hoax, don't worry you will still pay for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tompg View Post
    I'll answer this question:

    Here is a question for you BIGBOW. Lets say we decide on our own to cut our carbon emissions 40% and China/Inda say thats nice but no thanks as they have stated. What should we do after that? Cut it 80% to make up the difference?

    We should continue to cut our lead by example.

    Here's a question for you:

    China is a Communist Country with no free speech. Should we not allow free speech just because China doesn't. China sensors its peoples' access to information but we don't. What difference does it make if if we do the right thing and China does not?

    Don't tell me this off topic when you use an argument like "it's ok to be wrong because someone else is wrong."
    Oh its so much more involved than your argument. The fact of the matter is that you cant tell China to do anything because we are dependent on them to fund our massive debts. Because of this we have very little leverage and now our foreign policy is forever intertwined with our economic policy. I wont say your argument is off topic but what I will say is that China Sensoring someones free speech is deplorable and as a country our policy for many years was to stand on our principles for human rights. We no longer have that luxury unless we want to experience the economic reprecussions. However taken as an isolated example I would say the major difference is that if China and India do not participate your stated goals of reducing greenhouse gases cant be met. So you will expend money and alter your economy and yet the same levels of CO2 will essentially exist in our atmosphere. What has that gained you except a worsening economic situation (as if it could get any worse). Of course the other argument I could make in context is that you are assuming that global warming is an actual problem.

    Now if you have never been to China maybe you should go book a trip and visit some of the cities. When you come back you can tell us all why they dont give a crap about global warming? Let me give you a clue. They dont give a crap because they are too busy raping the entire country of its natural resources. While they are doing that they are also over in just about every sub saharan african country taking all of the available natural resources out of the ground. So before they would even consider doing something about global warming they probably have to address the rampant abuse of clean air and clean water.

    Finally if you are going to undertake a massive transformation of the global economic fabric it absolutely needs to be a shared responsibility among all nations. If our economic situation is drastically altered without a counterbalance it throws the entire system into even greater uncertainty. Our ability to purchase goods and services causes a severe domino effect. When you have less money to spend you purchase less. This is essentialy what is transpiring today. When you add all of the taxes necessary to fund not only this initiative but others to follow including social security and medicare you will have an economic tsunami that makes our current situation seem quite moderate by comparison. So when I see throw away comments like clean air isnt free I have to wonder if the person that states it has a real understanding of what could happen. Just remember that everything that transpires is interconnected and so as this bill goes so will the other bills that follow and no one can claim that dont see the current economic situation is bad. You would be hard pressed to argue that we can sustain greater ecnomic hardship.

    "Angling is extremely time consuming. That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane

  3. #123
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    Re: Global Warming a Hoax, don't worry you will still pay for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BIGBOW View Post
    What is there to debate you fool? Argue our opinions in front of a computer for days on end and get NOWHERE? This thread is a bunch of opinions.. nothing real at all.. oh, except Dr Trout Nazi who went to college and knows global warming is fake.
    It is not fake when we start dropping nukes on North Korea and China it isn't.

    Everyone knows that I did go to the eigth grade and I don't have a college degree. But I will tell you this.. it will reallllllllyyyyy get warm when all those bombs start dropping.

    I do no that. I does.. I really does.


  4. #124
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    Re: Global Warming a Hoax, don't worry you will still pay for it.

    OK MAC, I get your point about what we should not do. I don't necessarily agree. I for one am looking forward to a world that has run out of fossil fuels. I also hope we prosper as the smartest nation on the planet leads the way to an economy based on renewable energy. Whoever cracks that nut will certainly thrive.

    I also understand the notion that man saving the earth is a bit vain to say the least. Someone needs to save man from the earth.

    Do you have any solutions or are there no problems and everything related to energy and the environment is just grand? Should just work to defeat this bill everything will be fine? If not, what should we do?


  5. #125
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    Re: Global Warming a Hoax, don't worry you will still pay for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tompg View Post
    OK MAC, I get your point about what we should not do. I don't necessarily agree. I for one am looking forward to a world that has run out of fossil fuels. I also hope we prosper as the smartest nation on the planet leads the way to an economy based on renewable energy. Whoever cracks that nut will certainly thrive.

    I also understand the notion that man saving the earth is a bit vain to say the least. Someone needs to save man from the earth.

    Do you have any solutions or are there no problems and everything related to energy and the environment is just grand? Should just work to defeat this bill everything will be fine? If not, what should we do?
    As many of my previous posts indicate I am all for a cleaner environment and all for investment in alternative energy for a couple of reasons. One is that we dont make anything anymore and our economy is largely consumer based. I dont believe its necessary to make radical alterations so I would instead create incentives so that the greatest skill set that Americans have can be unleashed. That skill is our ability to innovate. In the county where I live we have one of the biggest alternative energy incubators around. It was cofunded by private and public partnership. In short we incented companies to invest and the result is that jobs have been creted working in alternative energy sources. Last month I had my home assessed for solar energy. The comany is called citizenre... The Citizenre Corporation They have come up with a unique model that essentially leases long term solar panels tied to your current monthly utility bill. In essence your up front costs are affordable and you lock your rate in for up to 25 years. If you sell your house you can transfer the lease to the new owner or they will come out and de-install it. I just finished reviewing a whitepaper on smartgird technologies that a colleague of mine wrote. It will be published soon for additional peer review. You can conservatively reduce wasted energy 8 fold with a smartgrid system. Whats great about this is that it can pay for itself. A sister company of ours does performance contracting for public sector institutions. They guarantee 20% reduction in energy costs or you pay them nothing. The contract is funded with the savings that these institutions get. Small examples Tom but when you add them they make a big difference. How many folks on this board have signed up to get an energy audit done on their homes? On average you can reduce your bills 15% by making very simple repairs and modifications to your home. If every household in america did that it would far exceed any government plan. So yes I object to giant bills that will provide government mandates which ultimately disensent business to invest and people to innovate. The answers to our challenges lie in the heart and minds of the american people and not with our government. Its been said before but its completely applicable. In this history of our country name a big government program that has been successful over the long term. You will be hard pressed to name 5 and thats just not a record I wish to bet on. Did I say bet..yes in effect its a gamble. My opinion is we should always be wary when we are told we neeed to do something or the sky will fall. Few things in life are that absolute. Just a quick example. Has anyone noticed the new cars that chevrolet is introducing right now? the camaro in addition to being a kick ass car can get 29mpg and costs under 24k. The new equinox gets 32mpg which is better than every other crossover in its class including escape hybrid also starts under 24k. None oof these cars were built out of the new company that has just emerged from bankruptcy. They were built by the old company. A number of noted MIT mathematicians have recently weighed the data out of the IPCC. There were several significant discrepencies in the data they reviewed. Translated someone dont know how to add/subtract/multiply/divide.

    In closing I would say I will always fall on the side of investing in people and the power of american ingenuity. I will generally oppose heavy handed big government programs with mandates from up on high. While not related to this thread you can check out www.i.o.u.s.a.com for the story on our pending fiscal disaster. If after reviewing that information you think we can continue on the way we are going than we can just agree to disagree. See we just had an exchange without tossing out insults. How refreshing??? Seriously though thanks for asking the question

    "Angling is extremely time consuming. That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane

  6. #126
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    Re: Global Warming a Hoax, don't worry you will still pay for it.

    The sad reality of all this is the fact history shows us all who care to view it the ice has come and gone thru the ages. And the earth is constantly changing ie; the topography, climate zones hell even the north and south pole need to repositioned each year as well as the seas rising and falling no shit even the Pocono's was once covered by the sea some 10,000 years ago. Just incredable that now all the sudden we are the cause of it! What caused the polar ice caps to advance all the way into the Pocono's ? Was it politics was it man or was it the earth naturaly evolving?Sure we are not helping it any and no matter what we do mother nature will have her way mark my words. Makes me wonder what this is all about and I'm just a commoner.We never would have had an energy crisis this soon if our super intelligent f##ked up government would not have bought up all the high tec high milage engines that were built by some brilliant engineers in the 50s and 60s. Because they saw the incredable money to be made in the gluttenous use of patrolium products they made their money and the end is near for oil now they are looking for another way to capitalize. Keep America dumb and dig into their dollars and strip them of their rights one at a time no longer sounding like a democracy is it... Argue as you may the earth has a mind of it's own and even harbors the power to end our life as it is known at any moment and the all powerful government will have no say!!Feel free to quote me on any of this as to my knowlage it is no bullshit.. I can only hope that if I am alive when it happens I am doing what I love and enjoy !! Peace out!! Back to Fly Fishing...


  7. #127
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    Re: Global Warming a Hoax, don't worry you will still pay for it.

    I was reading the wall street journel on line, and found a arhive peice on Al "I founded the internet" Gore.

    It was about why he wasn't invited to testify on the climate bill. It seems Mr. Gore's company has purchased a firm that is one of the biggest in buying and selling (cap and trade) credits in Europe. So if the US Senate passes a bill, and they and the house come to an agreement, and it ges signed into law he stands to make billions.

    Do I personally beleive in climate warming, yes I do, I just think this bill is to expensive, has too many add ons which will not anything to help the average tax payer. Plus to be honest anything that Congressman Waxman is involved with is usually sleezy. He was on cspan this afternoon with Polise, he is about 6 inches shorter his ear stick out like wings and are hugh, and with his nose likes like one of the gromes in a harry Potter moive!

    A bill that will not allow you to see a home untill a new federal agency or gov dept inspects the home for energy leeks, and could require you to spend thousands is a bad bill, especially in the current house situtation.

    When its going to raise home heating costs by hundreds for an average family, its a bad bill. There are better ways to help the climate, off shore wind mills for one, natural gas. A peice in the WSJ indicates that if 80% of home is New England stopped using home heating oil and went to natural gas, we could reduce our need for foriegn oil by 40%, and we have more natural gas then they have oil. On the other hand the current gas crasy shale drilling per the same story will not produce enough natural gas to replace imported oil.

    Bail outs to the car industry, while not reducing imprted autos, bail out of banks, the so called stimulus bill, we can't aford cap and trade even if it was truly the answer.

    I stronly suggest that everone go on line and spend time actually reading this bill. I did, but only after I was in Washington for TU and the National Wildlife Foundation, if I had read it all before I went to DC, I wouldn't have gone.


  8. #128
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    Re: Global Warming a Hoax, don't worry you will still pay for it.

    I cannot disagree that people need to conserve. I do however see a role for government in making it more affordable. The return on investment is way too long on many conservation items. I have read up to 25 years on solar panels. I cannot afford that. It seems to me whenever there is a choice to make on something that uses energy, the most efficient option (less fossil fuel burning option) is often twice the price. Think incandescent Vs CF bulbs or heat to use hot water heaters Vs. hot water tanks or solar panels vs PSE&G hookup. If Obama can bring some parity to the choices, I'd be thrilled. I'd be more thrilled if the market did it by itself, but sometime the market needs a push.


  9. #129
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    Re: Global Warming a Hoax, don't worry you will still pay for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Wesley Northridge View Post
    I'm not quite sure why this is in the "education" forum, but apparently some people feel the need to spout nonsense from street corners even in the information age.

    Is there a propaganda and paranoia sub-forum?

    Edited to add a little reality:

    The premise (30% increase in arctic sea ice) is inaccurate and based on a report of a guy doing his own "research" by counting pixels in a 2D representation of a 3D planet. Maps are distorted because a 3D object can't be accurately represented in a 2D space.

    See the editor's note at the end of the original article the initial link referenced at Arctic ice refuses to melt as ordered ? The Register.
    Thank god this guy exists - nothing worse than people assuming paranoid conspiracy theories are correct just because they read something somewhere. How about those people that think George Bush caused 9/11? I mean I really hate the guy, but saying that he caused 9/11? Just incredible. We are truly a country full of morons if we just believe everything we read - even if its going "against the status quo".


  10. #130
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    Re: Global Warming a Hoax, don't worry you will still pay for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tompg View Post
    I cannot disagree that people need to conserve. I do however see a role for government in making it more affordable. The return on investment is way too long on many conservation items. I have read up to 25 years on solar panels. I cannot afford that. It seems to me whenever there is a choice to make on something that uses energy, the most efficient option (less fossil fuel burning option) is often twice the price. Think incandescent Vs CF bulbs or heat to use hot water heaters Vs. hot water tanks or solar panels vs PSE&G hookup. If Obama can bring some parity to the choices, I'd be thrilled. I'd be more thrilled if the market did it by itself, but sometime the market needs a push.
    Let me address the solar panel issue first. I agree its too expensive thats why the company I mentioned in my last post is intriguing. Instead of forcing a large up front capital outlay you can sign up to a long term lease with very consumer friendly terms and essentially use solar energy capped at today's energy rates. In my example, the cost for electricity in our state is expected to rise substantially next year and this is without the impact of any pending energy bill so this has lots of benefits for me. Up front costs are minimal. imagine being able to pay your current utility rates guaranteed for the next 20plus years.

    Regarding your second point that the president will bring parity to energy choices. This is really something of a misnomer because the use of fossil fuels are so intertwined into our everyday life that making it more expensive in order to use those subsidies for other energy sources is in effect a tax on just about everything you use. These costs are not going to burdend by industry they are burdened onto the consumer. So I gave a few examples of how government can spur investment and I have seen first hand that it can work. Finally I am always curious as to why more folks dont actively conserve energy. There is tremendous waste of this resource every where you go. Drive by any part of town that has car dealerships and retail stores or office stores. Count how many lights are left on all night long. You could save a bundle just installing smart building systems. Worried about theft put in motion detectors to activate lighting as needed.

    Regarding the bill itself. When I see American tax dollars going out of the country to fund initiatives in countries where they dont want to do this on their own I say no thanks. Finally Tom you have to look at the situation as a whole. The financial situation is quite serious and the bills winding their way through congress are going to add to that fiscal deficit. Right now we are borrowing 50% of every dollar the government spend. The debt is not being financed through the sale of treasuries like it used to be. We are just printing the money. Already you have taxes going up on anyone 250K or higher in 2010. With the healthcare bill you are likely adding taxes on anyone 350K or higher. You have to resolve the social security/medicare issue NLT next year thats going to almost certainly mean lifting the cap on social security taxes which is currently capped on the first 106k of income. At last count 44 states are running deficits and looking for ways to increase revenues (taxes). Not sure about where you live but in general property taxes go up 200 bucks a year where i live. Now its certainly possible you may not be impacted directly by many of these taxes but indirectly you will be impacted. Its unavoidable despite what the president is telling you.Our economy is services based and the taxes incurred by small business owners up to large corporations are passed on to consumers. Small business especially because they have little recourse but to pass this on. Not trying to preach or anything like that but its really important to understand exactly what will happen on our current trajectory. Thats why I put up the link to www.I.O.U.S.A.com because when you add to everything I mentioned the retirement of the baby boomer population which is 10s of millions of people over the next 20 years the cost of entitlements to these folks alone is more than enough to bankrupt our economy. In fact what really needs to happen is that taxes will need to be raised across the board, services/entitlements cut, other programs eliminated just to service the debt we have now. So when comments like All I care about is money are thrown my way I say "Hell Yes" I care about money and more importantly I care about our country and do not want to see it destroyed from within.

    "Angling is extremely time consuming. That's sort of the whole point." - Thomas McGuane

  11. #131
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    Re: Global Warming a Hoax, don't worry you will still pay for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tompg View Post
    I cannot disagree that people need to conserve. I do however see a role for government in making it more affordable. The return on investment is way too long on many conservation items. I have read up to 25 years on solar panels. I cannot afford that. It seems to me whenever there is a choice to make on something that uses energy, the most efficient option (less fossil fuel burning option) is often twice the price. Think incandescent Vs CF bulbs or heat to use hot water heaters Vs. hot water tanks or solar panels vs PSE&G hookup. If Obama can bring some parity to the choices, I'd be thrilled. I'd be more thrilled if the market did it by itself, but sometime the market needs a push.
    This is a good post. Really good.


  12. #132
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    Re: Global Warming a Hoax, don't worry you will still pay for it.

    I only hope that Gov't helps make efficient choices more economical (for me and people like me). I don't say that there is a plan in effect. I would also prefer that green choices get cheaper not brown choices more expensive. Conserving energy is expensive. I for one would love to live off the grid but even the baby steps to get there are very costly in general, unless I move into a cave and give up on debating here at NEFF.com.

    Without commenting on SS, Medicare, baby boomers and everything else you mention, it's tough for people to spend any capital right now. A car dealer is not likely to spend the resources to install motion detectors for a few grand when he can leave his lights on for a few dollars. I like the intention but it's just not reasonable currently to expect many small business owners to make that type of investment. There is no way the motion detectors will pay for themselves before they need to be replaced.

    When ROI on energy efficient products is closer to a 30-90 days then conservation will reach a critical mass that really means something. According to my crystal ball anyway.